Not looking for who\which party unless you want to volunteer it.

Are you planning to vote in the election next month (USA)?

Yes, I am of course - although I am disappointed about the caliber of choices.

oh yeah more cesspool discussion.....

Doing mail-in myself. Not big on lines.
besides until we go electronic I have doubt that votes actually count.

yes.... will vote

agree.... choices bad


Independent and undecided..... will wait until I'm in the booth to decide who I want to hire or fire.

I'm debating whether I should vote to fire every incumbent regardless of party or vote to just fire republicans and put the dems back in power.:hmm:
... could go either way.:tiphat:

Already voted- way too many initiatives to wait until the last minute.....

Already voted- way too many initiatives to wait until the last minute.....

We got two "anti-smoking" campaigns going on
one of them says bars and restaurants determine if they want smoking and the other says no smoking whatsoever.

which one do you think is backed by big tobacco?

An add I heard this morning talks about an extra 5 million in taxes.... they needless forgot to mention the taxes were placed on cigarets only and wouldn't hit the rest of the population.

I am going to jump in....I am voting, and I do not agree with the ban of smoking in bars and restaurants. I don't smoke, and I do not promote smoking, but I do believe the business owner should have the FREEDOM of chosing whether he wants his bar or restaurant to be smoke-free.

besides until we go electronic I have doubt that votes actually count.

Ha! If you believe that you need to wake up and smell the corruption.....your vote will count less.

read this:

http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/?p=1064

I am going to jump in....I am voting, and I do not agree with the ban of smoking in bars and restaurants. I don't smoke, and I do not promote smoking, but I do believe the business owner should have the FREEDOM of chosing whether he wants his bar or restaurant to be smoke-free.

Let me ask this. If he were to not allow smoking and others did and the smokers left his establishment to go to another that did. Did he really have the freedom to choose?

If others allow smoking it is clearly profitable to allow smoking. But if noone allows it then it is now an even playing field with the exception of outside pattios wher smoking is allowed.

I suppose nonsmoking patrons have the freedom to not go out.

Ha! If you believe that you need to wake up and smell the corruption.....your vote will count less.

read this:

http://www.freedom-to-tinker.com/?p=1064

I don't think memory cards are the best way to do things. I personally would prefer live cast internt with thumbprint itentification. complete with cops in every voting building incase your thumbprint is attached to a wanted fellon.

Yes I am voting.

I am also “Independent”. :thumb:

The choice for governor in California is hmmmmmm (not happy with either one). :dontknow:

I wish they would ban smoking everywhere in public! :protest:

When I went to South Beach, Miami and Key West I could not escape the disgusting CIGAR smoke. It was everywhere! Too many tourists smoking cigars on all the outside patios, on all the sidewalks and at all the outside events (Mallory Square, etc, etc.). There was NO escape! :help:

I also believe smokers should be fined for littering when they put their cigarette butts out on the ground and when they throw them out of their car window! :protest:

P.S. I love these protesting smileys! LOL!! LOL!!

Yes I am voting.

I am also “Independent”. :thumb:

The choice for governor in California is hmmmmmm (not happy with either one). :dontknow:

I wish they would ban smoking everywhere in public! :protest:

When I went to South Beach, Miami and Key West I could not escape the disgusting CIGAR smoke. It was everywhere! Too many tourists smoking cigars on all the outside patios, on all the sidewalks and at all the outside events (Mallory Square, etc, etc.). There was NO escape! :help:

I also believe smokers should be fined for littering when they put their cigarette butts out on the ground and when they throw them out of their car window! :protest:

P.S. I love those protesting smileys!


I don't like litter either. Where does the banning stop? I love freedom.

I don't like litter either. Where does the banning stop? I love freedom.

IMO, they can smoke at home and in their cars and stop polluting the fresh air for the rest of us!

I am tired of holding my breath at the entranceways of public buildings until I pass through the massive cloud of smoke!

So in other words, in public places they get no rights because their smoke is choking the rest of us! It’s a public hazard! Smokers should not be able to violate nonsmokers by choking them and taking away their fresh air. :protest:

IMOP, they can smoke at home and in their cars and stop polluting the fresh air for the rest of us!

I am tired of holding my breath at the entranceways of public buildings until I pass through the massive cloud of smoke!

So in other words, in public places they get no rights because their smoke is choking the rest of us! It’s a public hazard! Smokers should not be able to violate nonsmokers by choking them and taking away their fresh air. :protest:

I think most smokers are getting used to the whole "no smoking in public" idea. I know that near the end for me, It bothered me less and less. Maybe all of the hoopla (I like that word) actually helped me finally quit.

Anyway, I won't oppose any smoking restrictions. For me it's a non-issue, and I know Cathy will appreciate this - I'm completely FREE from this entire debate... ha!:woot:

I think most smokers are getting used to the whole "no smoking in public" idea. I know that near the end for me, It bothered me less and less. Maybe all of the hoopla (I like that word) actually helped me finally quit.

Anyway, I won't oppose any smoking restrictions. For me it's a non-issue, and I know Cathy will appreciate this - I'm completely FREE from this entire debate... ha!:woot:


:spam: <<<<<I thought you would like this guy, Coach ;)

Yeah, it is soooo cool you quit, and are doing good with it. You should spread the word at a nicotine anonymous meeting....those people need to hear it can be done.

:spam: <<<<<I thought you would like this guy, Coach ;)

Yeah, it is soooo cool you quit, and are doing good with it. You should spread the word at a nicotine anonymous meeting....those people need to hear it can be done.

haha.... I do! I love the spam guy/thingy.:D I can't wait to use it for real.:lildevil:

I've never heard of an NA meeting. Do they actually have those? Do they really need to be anonymous?:scared: I mean, it's not like there's any shame attached to smoking the way there is to being a drunk, is there?:hmm:

haha.... I do! I love the spam guy/thingy.:D I can't wait to use it for real.:lildevil:

I've never heard of an NA meeting. Do they actually have those? Do they really need to be anonymous?:scared: I mean, it's not like there's any shame attached to smoking the way there is to being a drunk, is there?:hmm:

If there were I bet thered be less smokers. But considering most of us started because it was "cool"

For those planning not to vote:
Just remember when you don't vote, you are voting. You are saying it doesn't matter who goes in cuz my vote doesn't count, and then 10 million people say the same thing. And that makes a difference.

haha.... I do! I love the spam guy/thingy.:D I can't wait to use it for real.:lildevil:

I've never heard of an NA meeting. Do they actually have those? Do they really need to be anonymous?:scared: I mean, it's not like there's any shame attached to smoking the way there is to being a drunk, is there?:hmm:

I have known people who hid their smoke habit. There were parents at my daughter's grade school who didn't want anyone to know they smoked. It is really not a kid friendly habit.

For those planning not to vote:
Just remember when you don't vote, you are voting. You are saying it doesn't matter who goes in cuz my vote doesn't count, and then 10 million people say the same thing. And that's makes a difference.

I agree with you 100%. We have enough taxation without representation, so why make it worse?

I have known people who hid their smoke habit. There were parents at my daughter's grade school who didn't want anyone to know they smoked. It is really not a kid friendly habit.

But it's their kids they can do what they want...as the kid is getting excused from PE class for asthma or bronchitis.

But it's their kids they can do what they want...as the kid is getting excused from PE class for asthma or bronchitis.


huh?:confused:

I have known people who hid their smoke habit. There were parents at my daughter's grade school who didn't want anyone to know they smoked. It is really not a kid friendly habit.

true....

so how do I find an NA group?

true....

so how do I find an NA group?


http://www.nicotine-anonymous.org/

800-22-130 MI Lansing St. Lawrence Campus of Sparrow Hospital / Dr's Dining Room Mon 6:00 pm 1210 W. Saginaw
800-22-347 MI Kalamazoo Gilmore Center, Classroom #1 Sun 1:00 pm Walnut @ John Streets First of Month
800-22-346 MI Hancock Portage Health System Thu 6:30 pm 500 Campus Dr.
800-22-128 MI Grand Rapids Spectrum Health-Basement Cafeteria Sat 11:00am 750 Fuller NE Kent Community Campus
800-22-349 MI Petoskey Community Health Education Center Mon 7:00pm 360 Connable Ave. - across from NMH Email Contact: nicotine_freetoday@yahoo.com
800-22-343 MI Grand Rapids Spectrum Health-Basement Cafeteria Tue 5:30 pm 750 Fuller NE Kent Community Campus
800-22-653 MI Flint G-4511 Miller Road Thu 7:00 pm G-4511 Miller Road

http://www.nicotine-anonymous.org/

wow! that's crazy! I added it to my favorites so I can check it out later.
:)

Just a plain simple answer to the original question....Yes, I am voting :thumb:

Wow! Jeff! Your avatar has grown!! :scared: LOL!! I am scared!!

I am going to jump in....I am voting, and I do not agree with the ban of smoking in bars and restaurants. I don't smoke, and I do not promote smoking, but I do believe the business owner should have the FREEDOM of chosing whether he wants his bar or restaurant to be smoke-free.

Right on CJS, they can vote with their feet!
Junto

Yes I am voting.

I am also “Independent”. :thumb:

The choice for governor in California is hmmmmmm (not happy with either one). :dontknow:

I wish they would ban smoking everywhere in public! :protest:

When I went to South Beach, Miami and Key West I could not escape the disgusting CIGAR smoke. It was everywhere! Too many tourists smoking cigars on all the outside patios, on all the sidewalks and at all the outside events (Mallory Square, etc, etc.). There was NO escape! :help:

I also believe smokers should be fined for littering when they put their cigarette butts out on the ground and when they throw them out of their car window! :protest:

P.S. I love these protesting smileys! LOL!! LOL!!


So....do we ban everything that has the potential to offend or annoy anyone????
Junto

So....do we ban everything that has the potential to offend or annoy anyone????
Junto


It’s a matter of CHOKING people!! :yikes:

Why can’t people understand that their smoke CHOKES us??? :hmm:

Cough! Cough! Gag! Gag! Gasp! Gasp! :yikes:

We can't breath!

Is it really that hard to comprehend?

Answer me this question….should children be forced to breath the smoke of adults?

Try taking that point of view, picture small children breathing in your smoke…is that OK?

No one should be forced to breath the smoke of others…that includes from 1 day old to 100 years old!

Keep your smoke out of our clean air and stop CHOKING us in public!!:protest:

So....do we ban everything that has the potential to offend or annoy anyone????
Junto

I am all for the freedom to kill yourself slowly at your own expense.

but when you get cancer don't use medical insurance cause it raises everyones rates not just yours.

and don't give me your cancer either.

When you infringe on others peoples rights is when your rights need to be chopped off.

So....do we ban everything that has the potential to offend or annoy anyone????
Junto

A lot of things are banned because it annoys or offends somebody. If anything, smoking in public places should be top of the list. It's called a "society" -- you know, that place where you don't exist all by yourself.

Besides, when it comes to personal responsibility, smokers are really bad at it. You will see a smoker light up and puff smoke right in an infant's face, if you let them. And that is when they are not actually in their own home by the way.

I am voting for anything but Republicans. :mad:

I am voting for anything but Republicans. :mad:Would that include, if the choice was the only one, a woman hating Democrat or a Nazi Socialist?

The Parties have sooooooo few differences now, it's typically WE who look for the differences.

unfortunatly, that usually spills over into other areas of life.

I used to vote... mostly for Libertarians, and against freedom-restricting initiatives. I'm no longer going to vote. Freedom-restricting initiatives and big government policies are so overwhelmingly supported here that going against them is like pissing in the wind (can I say that here? :)).

So, no mas voting for me.

I am going to jump in....I am voting, and I do not agree with the ban of smoking in bars and restaurants. I don't smoke, and I do not promote smoking, but I do believe the business owner should have the FREEDOM of chosing whether he wants his bar or restaurant to be smoke-free.I agree. I won't go there, but it's not my World to be there in the first place.

Aloha Jason! Welcome!

Sounds quite unlike a Libretarian. sounds more like a toss-in-the-towel-litarian.

What are you doing to Enhance Freedoms now?

BTW KG ...... thats a good question for You, since you see such a derth of people you like.

What'choo doin' Willis?

BTW KG ...... thats a good question for You, since you see such a derth of people you like.

What'choo doin' Willis?From my perspective Stan the time for protests and lessons and punishments is during the primaries - this is where 'we the people' theoretically have the best opportunity to improve the farm team. The primaries are where we have the best hope to influence the caliber and quality of our government.

Once we get past the primaries, it is time for committed voters to vote their conscience (or 'not vote' their conscience as the case may be). In my case, I'll be voting Republican as it is the national party that most closely matches my beliefs although their performance (Senate especially) has been rather disappointing.

For me, it is supporting causes and candidates that most closely match my ideals. Now it is volunteering for get-out-the-vote efforts where the Republicans really shine (phone bank), and doing my part to ensure the base stays energized and is not tricked into not voting by the current de-moralization campaign in the major media.

My big issues this election are border security, war on terror, economy and regulation\taxes. This only leaves me with one logical selection.

It could eventually get to where I have to do it myself :D

From my perspective Stan the time for protests and lessons and punishments is during the primaries - this is where 'we the people' theoretically have the best opportunity to improve the farm team. The primaries are where we have the best hope to influence the caliber and quality of our government.

Once we get past the primaries, it is time for committed voters to vote their conscience (or 'not vote' their conscience as the case may be). In my case, I'll be voting Republican as it is the national party that most closely matches my beliefs although their performance (Senate especially) has been rather disappointing.

For me, it is supporting causes and candidates that most closely match my ideals. Now it is volunteering for get-out-the-vote efforts where the Republicans really shine (phone bank), and doing my part to ensure the base stays energized and is not tricked into not voting by the current de-moralization campaign in the major media.

My big issues this election are border security, war on terror, economy and regulation\taxes. This only leaves me with one logical selection.

It could eventually get to where I have to do it myself :DWell, I'm glad You're Active, but I guess I should have just asked .....

Since You are so Passionate about Your Beliefs, and You appear to be casting some of your Votes at the Lesser-of-Two-Evils (dissapointed at the performance and selection) and You appear to Believe that Your Vews are what should drive the Drive .....

When are YOU Running?

Would that include, if the choice was the only one, a woman hating Democrat or a Nazi Socialist?

Stupid hypotheticals are a waste. Give it a rest.

I used to vote... mostly for Libertarians, and against freedom-restricting initiatives. I'm no longer going to vote. Freedom-restricting initiatives and big government policies are so overwhelmingly supported here that going against them is like pissing in the wind (can I say that here? :)).

So, no mas voting for me.

Thats very libertarian of you....:cookoo:
What if even though you think your voice is unheard you keep to your morals and even as the little guy you still scream to the top of your lungs. What if it wa what is needed to inspire a true leader?

Just my grand sceam of things thoughts.

Stupid hypotheticals are a waste. Give it a rest.

I see your thoughts on this are quite developed and well thought out. Good for you.

Yes they are. I can think quite clearly and it is painfully obvious when people resort to bs to make a point. Kind of like your post. :rolleyes:

Yes they are. I can think quite clearly and it is painfully obvious when people resort to bs to make a point. Kind of like your post. :rolleyes:

ok....so let me get this straight....you simply disagree with me no matter where i stand?.....and where do i stand in this issue?

No I just prefer honesty over veiled sarcasm.

No I just prefer honesty over veiled sarcasm.

I don't veil my sarcasm...its right out there and very obveous.

I am just having troubles swallowing your black and white view of the world and anything that you don't agree with can be nothing but wrong and there is no chance you are wrong.

Seriously I WAS voting democratic this election but if you are any example of what we will get then I am quickly changing my vote.

I don't veil my sarcasm...its right out there and very obveous.

I am just having troubles swallowing your black and white view of the world and anything that you don't agree with can be nothing but wrong and there is no chance you are wrong.

Seriously I WAS voting democratic this election but if you are any example of what we will get then I am quickly changing my vote.

You have some serious problems. You know nothing about me. How dare you make personal statements about what I believe. You don't know jack. Your continued personal attacks at me on threads have earned you another - "Bite Me Jerk". :spank:

I think everybody should vote!

People in the western world are so lazy and take so many things for granted, remember all those places where the people cannot vote!

You actually have the privilege to be heard!
-Nelson Mandela was quite old before he could vote for the first time in his life!

Flower

Sounds quite unlike a Libretarian. sounds more like a toss-in-the-towel-litarian.

What are you doing to Enhance Freedoms now?I'm really not doing anything to enhance freedom outside of my own immediate circle.

Thats very libertarian of you....
What if even though you think your voice is unheard you keep to your morals and even as the little guy you still scream to the top of your lungs. What if it wa what is needed to inspire a true leader?Heck, I'm not into screaming :). I have a plan for my life, it just doesn't involve changing people's minds. I can have a great time even in a world full of collectivists :bonk:

I'm voting....twice if they let me! :p

I'm voting....twice if they let me! :p


I had a feeling you might have a split personality... :yup:

I'm voting....twice if they let me! :pYou live in Chicago? :rofl:

You live in Chicago? :rofl:No way Manta, only dead people get to vote twice in Boss Daley's Chi-town.:lildevil:

No way Manta, only dead people get to vote twice in Boss Daley's Chi-town.:lildevil:
of course ..... how stooopid of me! :bonk:

I had a feeling you might have a split personality... :yup:

Roses are red
Violet are blue
I've got a split personality
And so do I :D

You live in Chicago? :rofl:

Louisiana...where we have the best politics money can buy! :bonk:

Louisiana...where we have the best politics money can buy! :bonk:


aaaah....heeee

aaaah....heeee

Hey Coach,

That's pretty good cajun speak! :thumb: Where'd you learn that?

Hey Coach,

That's pretty good cajun speak! :thumb: Where'd you learn that?

I learned that about 12 years ago, from a guy who sang kareoke at the bowling alley. He was from Jumbalyaville or somewhere's thereabouts.:lildevil:

A political thread. (Cool)

Started by John. (what a surprise!)

Seeing a cranky argument result and it's not between me and John! Priceless! :yippee: :yippee:


Jennifer

A political thread. (Cool)

Started by John. (what a surprise!)

Seeing a cranky argument result and it's not between me and John! Priceless! :yippee: :yippee:


Jennifer

We really have fallen into an alternate universe! :kewl:

No way Manta, only dead people get to vote twice in Boss Daley's Chi-town.:lildevil:

Watch it bub! :lildevil:

A political thread. (Cool)

Started by John. (what a surprise!)

Seeing a cranky argument result and it's not between me and John! Priceless! :yippee: :yippee:


Jennifer

In the voice of another credit card ad:

For RPM discussions there is the AR board... for everything else... SuccessVibe... Don't be at home without it!!

:)

Paul

In the voice of another credit card ad:

For RPM discussions there is the AR board... for everything else... SuccessVibe... Don't be at home without it!!

:)

Paul

:rofl:

I feel like I need to say something politically-oriented in this thread, but I can't think of one intelligent thing to say about politics. I am totally clueless when it comes to that stuff.

So, I've got one word for ya: strategery. :spam:

In the voice of another credit card ad:

For RPM discussions there is the AR board... for everything else... SuccessVibe... Don't be at home without it!!

:)

Paul


:rulz:

Jennifer

I just realized I am travelling...hope I get back in time

I just realized I am travelling...hope I get back in time

mail in ballot i think it needs to be requested by the 31st

I am voting for anything but Republicans. :mad:

I personally prefer to look at platforms and stances of the individual candidates rather than party affiliation. Believe it or not, there are good and bad Republicans, good and bad Democrats, and lots of good Libertarians! ;)

Ok, so maybe there are a few bad Libertarians....but none of the bad ones are running! :biglaugh:

I personally prefer to look at platforms and stances of the individual candidates rather than party affiliation. Believe it or not, there are good and bad Republicans, good and bad Democrats, and lots of good Libertarians! ;)

Ok, so maybe there are a few bad Libertarians....but none of the bad ones are running! :biglaugh:
Agreed!

I personally prefer to look at platforms and stances of the individual candidates rather than party affiliation. Believe it or not, there are good and bad Republicans, good and bad Democrats, and lots of good Libertarians! ;)

Ok, so maybe there are a few bad Libertarians....but none of the bad ones are running! :biglaugh:

Bush has not been a good president and has bullied most of the republicans into falling in line with him. Sure there are a few House members who actually have a brain and a spine but that's about it. It's basically been about audaciously lining corporate pockets instead of making decisions that benefit us. That has got to stop.

That has got to stop.Not REALLY it doesn't :biglaugh:

Not REALLY it doesn't :biglaugh:

Live in your fantasyworld if you want, I want things to get better than they are.

Bush has not been a good president and has bullied most of the republicans into falling in line with him. Sure there are a few House members who actually have a brain and a spine but that's about it. It's basically been about audaciously lining corporate pockets instead of making decisions that benefit us. That has got to stop.

Penelope, that sounded like it was straight from the Democrats talking points. Care to endulge in any specifics?
I would like to hear evidence and examples that would enlighten and/or alter my current beleifs and paradigms Penelope. I am no longer hear to win arguments or debates. However, if you keep on spouting these generic bipartisan talking points nothing will be uncovered or clarified. It is obvious you do not like Republicans and you probably hate President Bush. Can you put that aside for now and make an effort towards clarity and truth?:thumb:
Junto

Penelope, that sounded like it was straight from the Democrats talking points. Care to endulge in any specifics?
I would like to hear evidence and examples that would enlighten and/or alter my current beleifs and paradigms Penelope. I am no longer hear to win arguments or debates. However, if you keep on spouting these generic bipartisan talking points nothing will be uncovered or clarified. It is obvious you do not like Republicans and you probably hate President Bush. Can you put that aside for now and make an effort towards clarity and truth?:thumb:
Junto

Junto

Off topic here - do you think that you could space your posts out a little?

I like reading them, its just quite hard when all the sentances roll into one:bonk:

Thanks:thumb:

Care to endulge in any specifics?

Junto

If you have to ask for specifics about whats wrong with the current administration, either you've been living in a hole underground (like Saddam Hussein), or you're seriously mentally demented. Sorry. This isn't even about parties anymore!

Junto

Off topic here - do you think that you could space your posts out a little?

I like reading them, its just quite hard when all the sentances roll into one:bonk:

Thanks:thumb:

All posts will be properly spaced for now on Chuck. Thanks.
Junto

Live in your fantasyworld if you want, I want things to get better than they are.I understand, I want lots of things too.

If you have to ask for specifics about whats wrong with the current administration, either you've been living in a hole underground (like Saddam Hussein), or you're seriously mentally demented. Sorry. This isn't even about parties anymore!

That's not nice. Junto was asking a fair question. I don't think name calling is the same as asking for specifics.

Let's face it, you may not like the current administration and you've probably got some good reasons, why not just name some.

There are folks who like the current adminitation (about 35-40% of the country according to most polls) and I don't think they're living in a hole or are demented.

They probably appreciate the fact that there have been no further terrorist attacks within our borders since 2001.

They probably like the Supreme Court nominations.

They probably like that the stock market is doing great!

They probably like that they are paying less in taxes.

There are plenty of specifics that one can name AGAINST the administration as well:

illegal alien problems
US death toll in Iraq
Supreme Court nomination

Name calling is not dialoguing and really doesn't help anyone's cause.

Don't forget about the "Be Nice To Everyone Thread" http://www.successvibe.com/showthread.php?t=1071

It's quite obvious that the minute somebody calls it "democratic talk" they are not ready for intellectual debate. So why waste my time? You can't criticize what's going on without it being labelled "democratic talk"? As for not being nice, you are free to interpret my comment however it suits you. From what I've seen of Junto, I don't think he's demented or living in a hole, so it surprised me he'd ask the question. But then again, maybe he was serious, and I'm glad you provided him the answers.

Sorry. This isn't even about parties anymore!
I didn't know there was much of a difference "between" the parties anymore. not that there was ever all that much difference to begin with.

It's always been soooooo much easier to find those multitudes of miniscule and nuanced differences than it is to recognize the overwhelming similarities.

I think ALL parties need to wake up to that little factoid.

As an Independent, Self-Reliant, Freewill exercising, Red-blooded American, I have decided that I will vote, and after a heated political discussion this morning with the owner of the local fitness center, I have decided I will vote to support all third party candidates unless there are none, in which case I will vote for Democrats.

Here is why:

Corruption is not okay with me.
Corporate greed is not okay with me.
The Iraq war is not okay with me.
45 million Americans living below the poverty line is not okay with me.
35 million Americans without health insurance is not okay with me.
Wire tapping without court approval is not okay with me.
Torture is not okay with me.
Congressmen buggering young boys is not okay with me.
Having an unsecure southern border is not okay with me.
Putting an Arab country in charge of our ports is not okay with me.

..... I think you get the idea....

If I could, I would fire them all, but I can't so I will do my civic duty and vote my conscience. I hope you will all do the same. :thumb:

I didn't know there was much of a difference "between" the parties anymore. not that there was ever all that much difference to begin with.

It's always been soooooo much easier to find those multitudes of miniscule and nuanced differences than it is to recognize the overwhelming similarities.

I think ALL parties need to wake up to that little factoid.

Totally agree.

As an Independent, Self-Reliant, Freewill exercising, Red-blooded American, I have decided that I will vote, and after a heated political discussion this morning with the owner of the local fitness center, I have decided I will vote to support all third party candidates unless there are none, in which case I will vote for Democrats.

Here is why:

Corruption is not okay with me.
Corporate greed is not okay with me.
The Iraq war is not okay with me.
45 million Americans living below the poverty line is not okay with me.
35 million Americans without health insurance is not okay with me.
Wire tapping without court approval is not okay with me.
Torture is not okay with me.
Congressmen buggering young boys is not okay with me.
Having an unsecure southern border is not okay with me.
Putting an Arab country in charge of our ports is not okay with me.

..... I think you get the idea....

If I could, I would fire them all, but I can't so I will do my civic duty and vote my conscience. I hope you will all do the same. :thumb:

Hey Coach, any Libertarian stuff going on up in your part of the country?

Never mind.

Hey Coach, any Libertarian stuff going on up in your part of the country?

There are a few, so if I see one on the ballot that will be good news for him/her! :D

There are a few, so if I see one on the ballot that will be good news for him/her! :D

It's too bad that so many folks THINK third party, but then back off under the belief that they're vote will somehow not count because the third party candidates don't have a chance. It's a terrible catch 22 that keeps the third parties from having a chance!

I hope you have a chance to send a message and make a difference!

It's too bad that so many folks THINK third party, but then back off under the belief that they're vote will somehow not count because the third party candidates don't have a chance. It's a terrible catch 22 that keeps the third parties from having a chance!

I hope you have a chance to send a message and make a difference!

I am! It's not the presidential so I'm voting my way this go around.

I am! It's not the presidential so I'm voting my way this go around.

I'm getting the feeling that you and I have a lot in common BillBoJimBob! :thumb:

my ideal sceanero
Libertarian pres
republican senate
democrate house

no 1 party should control the whole thing.

my ideal sceanero
Libertarian pres
republican senate
democrate house

no 1 party should control the whole thing.

now you're talking! :thumb:

mine would be

Independent Pres
Split Dem/Rep Senate
Split Libertarian/Green house

Man, people would have to honestly work together for a change. :tiphat:

now you're talking! :thumb:

mine would be

Independent Pres
Split Dem/Rep Senate
Split Libertarian/Green house

Man, people would have to honestly work together for a change. :tiphat:

It just dawned me how cool that last one is...Green House!

I just voted. I still haven't played with the touch screens, as the line was too long, so I opted for the color in the dots ballot.

I am voting today for sure! My votes will go to conservatives who do not want gay rights, abortions, and things of that nature. Get out there and vote!

I'll be heading to the booth after lunch. Hoping to avoid a crowd.

I will be voting shortly. Third party candidates and Dems will be getting my vote. I'm tired of "Holier than thou" Repubs advocating one thing while pesonally doing the opposite.

What matters most is that everyone votes. It's the only way we will ever have "true" representation in government.

Be an independent thinker! Vote your mind! :thumb:

I did it. I did my civic duty! :tiphat:

Yes, I did!! :thumb:

I voted weeks ago for freedom, not for people who think they have a right to oppress groups because they are not like them or they are "sinners".

I voted weeks ago for freedom, not for people who think they have a right to oppress groups because they are not like them or they are "sinners".

Out of interest, where did you find someone who fitted that bill?

It ain't easy and it ain't perfect. I just thought it was a better approach than looking for someone specifically to oppress gays, women and other groups.

I found myself wanting to vote yesterday, but I fought the urge. On one hand I wanted to support what I consider to be good candidates (even though they have no shot at winning), but on the other hand I would feel bad if I directly supported the system. In the end I decided to not play. ;)

I found myself wanting to vote yesterday, but I fought the urge. On one hand I wanted to support what I consider to be good candidates (even though they have no shot at winning), but on the other hand I would feel bad if I directly supported the system. In the end I decided to not play. ;)


Let’s start a new poll……

When you saw the word Libertarian on your ballet yesterday, did you think of Stoic_Jason?

I did.....…LOL!! :rulz:

Let’s start a new poll……

When you saw the word Libertarian on your ballet yesterday, did you think of Stoic_Jason?

I did.....…LOL!! :rulz:
:D Go getter girl.

I found myself wanting to vote yesterday, but I fought the urge. On one hand I wanted to support what I consider to be good candidates (even though they have no shot at winning), but on the other hand I would feel bad if I directly supported the system. In the end I decided to not play. ;)

Same here. No vote. Can't support the system as it is, any longer.

-CP

No vote - no bitching for you for a year. :D The democracy-Nazi (Seinfeld tribute)

I think you'll note a distinct lack of bitching from me, bro. When it comes to politics, I don't bitch much at all- beyond to say that the 2 party system doesn't work for me. I've never bneen much of a comlpainer... it doesnt accomplish anything. :cool:

-CP

It ain't easy and it ain't perfect. I just thought it was a better approach than looking for someone specifically to oppress gays, women and other groups.

I voted for people who have solid morals and values in this election. Conservative, morals, values.

No vote - no bitching for you for a year. :D The democracy-Nazi (Seinfeld tribute)"Nnnno bitch for you!"

I probably won't... I'm stoic, remember? ;)

I voted for people who have solid morals and values in this election. Conservative, morals, values.

.... and how did you determine that there morals and values are solid? Can you read their minds? Do you know what's in their heart the way GW could tell that Putin has a good heart? :rolleyes:

OR..... do you assume that being Republican means they have strong morals and values?


I don't think I need to rehash the list of Rebublican dirtbags. What is most disturbing to me is the way you seem to judge character based on political party affiliation. It makes me think you are easily influenced by extreme religious leaders and political party advertisements.

You should be careful of being so sure of yourself. Just because you perceive something to be true does not make it true. I am suggesting that your ability to discern the truth is lacking. :(

.... and how did you determine that there morals and values are solid? Can you read their minds? Do you know what's in their heart the way GW could tell that Putin has a good heart?

OR..... do you assume that being Republican means they have strong morals and values?Uhhh, do you not get political advertising?!? You gotta vote for the man or woman with 2+ kids and a smiling spouse, and a golden retriever. It helps if they use hairspray and have straight teeth..... oh, and if they have an American flag in their postcards, or flat out SAY they value freedom, that's a good candidate. If they run a TV commercial, look for the guy helping a dark-skinned child do their classwork. Here in Texas we like to see our politicians with longhorns in the background, or at least folks who lay the drawls on real thick-like. That shows they're good people ;)

Uhhh, do you not get political advertising?!? You gotta vote for the man or woman with 2+ kids and a smiling spouse, and a golden retriever. It helps if they use hairspray and have straight teeth..... oh, and if they have an American flag in their postcards, or flat out SAY they value freedom, that's a good candidate. If they run a TV commercial, look for the guy helping a dark-skinned child do their classwork. Here in Texas we like to see our politicians with longhorns in the background, or at least folks who lay the drawls on real thick-like. That shows they're good people ;)

I am a fan of Texas, love it, conservative values, death penalty, strict laws, excellent state.

No vote - no bitching for you for a year. :D The democracy-Nazi (Seinfeld tribute)SoupNazi
You get Broccoli

death penalty

i thought you were opposed to murder?? :confused:

I am a fan of Texas, love it, conservative values, death penalty, strict laws, excellent state.

But abortion is wrong?

Come on guys, keep the sniping in other threads.

Otherwise I'll be forced to show that there are clear, logical, and secular reasons for being against abortion and for capital punishment and to demonstrate to even the most intellectually challenged that the two are not even remotely morally equivalent - completely outside of the deeply personal religious reasons many people have for opposing abortion and supporting justice.

I really don't want to go there right now so keep it nice please.

I voted for people who have solid morals and values in this election. Conservative, morals, values.You Voted Amish? Good For You!

You Voted Amish? Good For You!

Would the amish even do that? Don't they have a certain disdaine to all of politics?

Would the amish even do that? Don't they have a certain disdaine to all of politics?

No...just cars.

Come on guys, keep the sniping in other threads.

Otherwise I'll be forced to show that there are clear, logical, and secular reasons for being against abortion and for capital punishment and to demonstrate to even the most intellectually challenged that the two are not even remotely morally equivalent - completely outside of the deeply personal religious reasons many people have for opposing abortion and supporting justice.

I really don't want to go there right now so keep it nice please.

I thought you said to keep the sniping in other threads. :rolleyes:

SoupNazi
You get Broccoli


No soup for you!!! :nono: :curse:
NEXT!!! :goaway:

I am a fan of Texas, love it, conservative values, death penalty, strict laws, excellent state.

Strict Texas laws based on conservative values:

1. In Dallas it is illegal to possess realistic dildos
2. It is illegal to idle or loiter anyplace within the corporate limits of Abilene for the purpose of flirting or mashing.
3. It is illegal to urinate on the Alamo
4. It is legal for the blind to go hunting as long as they have someone with them who isn't blind.
5. It is legal for a husband to beat his wife as long as he uses something no bigger than his thumb.
6. In Mesquite it is illegal for children to have unusual haircuts
7. It is illegal to tuck your pants into one boot unless you own ten or more cattle.
8. In Port Arthur obnoxious odors may not be emitted while in an elevator.
9. In Dallas County it is illegal to own any realistic looking, phallic shaped, personal massager more than one foot in length.
10. A criminal must give their victims 24 hours notice, either orally or in writing, to explain the nature of the crime to be committed.

And let us not forget that in Texas, death is highly valued.

Oh, I almost forgot. In texas it's legal to shoot someone in the face while pheasant hunting, so long as the shooter is inebriated and the person being shot is a lawyer.

Uhhh, do you not get political advertising?!? You gotta vote for the man or woman with 2+ kids and a smiling spouse, and a golden retriever. It helps if they use hairspray and have straight teeth..... oh, and if they have an American flag in their postcards, or flat out SAY they value freedom, that's a good candidate. If they run a TV commercial, look for the guy helping a dark-skinned child do their classwork. Here in Texas we like to see our politicians with longhorns in the background, or at least folks who lay the drawls on real thick-like. That shows they're good people ;)

never mind I get it.

:coffee:

um.... duh...... no can you please explain it to me. I don't understand much ya know.... der.....
:rolleyes:

I think you missed the sarcasm coach

Come on guys, keep the sniping in other threads.

Otherwise I'll be forced to show that there are clear, logical, and secular reasons for being against abortion and for capital punishment and to demonstrate to even the most intellectually challenged that the two are not even remotely morally equivalent - completely outside of the deeply personal religious reasons many people have for opposing abortion and supporting justice.

I really don't want to go there right now so keep it nice please.

Please do go there.....

It appears that you only consider a comment sniping when it goes against your own personal belief. It's a conservative argument tactic that is completely worn out (IMO). Conservatives are quick to trash anyone with an opposing view, but when given a taste of their own medicine, they cry foul.

So, go ahead and make your argument why abortion should be illegal (based on a pro life, "all life is sacred" stance) and in the same breath argue in favor of the death penalty without letting on that there is an exception to the all life is sacred theory. And I suppose it's neocons who get to decide which life is sacred? Or maybe God decides which life is sacred and it's the neocons who get to tell us all what God said....

Come on KG. Don't snipe the thread. Either get in the argument or get out.

I think you missed the sarcasm coach


okay..... I get it now.

I'm a little slow on the uptake this morning.

:)

Please do go there.....

It appears that you only consider a comment sniping when it goes against your own personal belief. It's a conservative argument tactic that is completely worn out (IMO). Conservatives are quick to trash anyone with an opposing view, but when given a taste of their own medicine, they cry foul.

So, go ahead and make your argument why abortion should be illegal (based on a pro life, "all life is sacred" stance) and in the same breath argue in favor of the death penalty without letting on that there is an exception to the all life is sacred theory. And I suppose it's neocons who get to decide which life is sacred? Or maybe God decides which life is sacred and it's the neocons who get to tell us all what God said....

Come on KG. Don't snipe the thread. Either get in the argument or get out.

Ohh, this should be fun. KG is a most excellent debater, Coach (right up there with a guy named Loop). You best have your "A" game ready. Best wishes :tiphat:

.... and how did you determine that there morals and values are solid? Can you read their minds? Do you know what's in their heart the way GW could tell that Putin has a good heart? :rolleyes:

OR..... do you assume that being Republican means they have strong morals and values?


I don't think I need to rehash the list of Rebublican dirtbags. What is most disturbing to me is the way you seem to judge character based on political party affiliation. It makes me think you are easily influenced by extreme religious leaders and political party advertisements.

You should be careful of being so sure of yourself. Just because you perceive something to be true does not make it true. I am suggesting that your ability to discern the truth is lacking. :(

I just morals and values by what people DO, not what they say.There are immoral politicians on both sides. I choose based on actions and beliefs. For example, someone who is against abortion and gay rights.

i thought you were opposed to murder?? :confused:

I am opposed to murder.

But abortion is wrong?

Totally wrong.

I just morals and values by what people DO, not what they say.There are immoral politicians on both sides. I choose based on actions and beliefs. For example, someone who is against abortion and gay rights.

I think you will always find disappointment in politicians. None of them are perfect. Look at how many people were disappointed in the Terry Schiavo tragedy.

Paul

I choose based on actions and beliefs. For example, someone who is against abortion and gay rights.

So you are in favor a big, intrusive government? You want politicians personally involved with a woman's uterus? You want politicians in the private bedrooms of grown adults throwing a penalty flag for illegal use of the weenie?

Please do go there.....

It appears that you only consider a comment sniping when it goes against your own personal belief. It's a conservative argument tactic that is completely worn out (IMO). Conservatives are quick to trash anyone with an opposing view, but when given a taste of their own medicine, they cry foul.

So, go ahead and make your argument why abortion should be illegal (based on a pro life, "all life is sacred" stance) and in the same breath argue in favor of the death penalty without letting on that there is an exception to the all life is sacred theory. And I suppose it's neocons who get to decide which life is sacred? Or maybe God decides which life is sacred and it's the neocons who get to tell us all what God said....

Come on KG. Don't snipe the thread. Either get in the argument or get out.I was addressing Billie and PW's baiting of TOTW Coach. I know and have no problem that people disagree with positions they attribute to me without knowing necessarily what my position actually is.

If you read my post carefully you will see I suggested that I would address how someone could justify an anti-abortion and pro-capital punishment position from a logical, secular standpoint and NOT from deeply held personal religious beliefs.

Also, I am an old school conservative not a neo-con which is, in itself, a non-sequitor as the people originally called neo-cons where in fact
'hard right liberals", politically they were extreme left on social issues and hard right on national defense and foreign policy - the real neocons would support abortion rights. Neo-con, as used today is simply a perjorative for any Republican that someone wants to deride and dismiss.

I'll start with secular and logical reasons to be pro-life.

FWIW, I do not believe in unrestricted abortion on-demand but it presently is the law of the land, I believe in parental notification and I understand the desire for and support abortion for actual medical threats to the mother and possibly for cases of incest\rape but abortion as after-the-fact birth control is offensive to me. I oppose 'partial-birth' as a procedure under any circumstance as inhuman.


Everyone agrees that at the point of viability (live outside the womb), that a human prenate is in fact a human being with all due natural and legal rights and is deserviing of protection under those concepts. Other than using the idea of when the prenate can physically survive outside the womb, it is not possible to scientifically, ethically or otherwise determine a specific point in human development when the prenate 'becomes' a human being. Lacking an undefinable point where a 'group of cells' magically transmogrifies into a human being, logically the prenate is always a human being as it has no ability to develop into say, a chicken, a dog, or anything other than a human being.

In a legal context, if someone murders a pregnant woman and the murder results in the death of the prenate, many jurisdictions will charge the suspect with not one but two counts of murder. Murder is the taking of a human life. Therefore, if a prenate can be murdered, then it is, in fact, a human life. In this case, the intent of the murderer is irrelevant - it matters not if the murderer intended to kill the mother, or both the mother and prenate.

In reviewing the Declaration of Independence, we are guaranteed certain unalienable rights, specifically the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As citizens our rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are individual rights, and our right to exercise them only end when they interfere with the same rights of another citizen. Anyone born in the US is guaranteed rights as a citizen, but as before, is the birth act itself some magical transformation? If you don't believe in magic then, as before? when do we pin the point of transformation unless the prenate is essentially always a citizen from conception, same as its being a human.

Yet another legal\ethical reason to be against abortion is that at its' base, it is a form of discrimination. Similar to our repulsion at the idea of discrimination
on the basis of genetics (e.g., race) over which people have no control, why is it somehow acceptable to discriminate on age or development? Certainly legal rights and protections change as a person ages\develops, but what we see is that the real change is in the amount of self determination and personal responsibility. Our legal system goes to great lengths to identify and protect the less developed (be it age, or mental capacity), to the point of creating special classes and special crime definitions when the system determines that a person is in a significantly less powerful position compared to their victimizer (e.g., Special Victims Unit for sexual crimes against children, Civil Rights Commissions for racial minorities).

It is cognitive dissonance to suggest that the only determinant of a prenates' citizenship, or humanness, and by default it's access to or denial of full protection under the law, is the mother's desire to carry the prenate to term. In no other current legal concept is one human being's or one citizen's human or legal rights completely trumped by another. We used to allow that, it was called slavery, and we moved beyond it.

Ethically, abortion denies the prenate to the most fundamental aspect of the Natural Law, the right to life, based solely on the desire of the mother.

Legally, abortion denies the prenate the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, rights guaranteed to all citizens of the US, solely on the basis of an arbitrary selection of when the prenate 'becomes' a citizen.

Scientifically, abortion denies the prenate classification as a human being until viability, even though it has no capacity to ever become anything other than a human being, and contains the entire human genetic code at conception.

Notice I have not used God, Innocent, Evil, Theology, Belief or any other of the myriad of deeply help personal religious beliefs that a good many people use to justify their opposition ot abortion.

Next up will be justification for Capital Punishment.

I was addressing Billie and PW's baiting of TOTW Coach. I know and have no problem that people disagree with positions they attribute to me without knowing necessarily what my position actually is.

If you read my post carefully you will see I suggested that I would address how someone could justify an anti-abortion and pro-capital punishment position from a logical, secular standpoint and NOT from deeply held personal religious beliefs.

Also, I am an old school conservative not a neo-con which is, in itself, a non-sequitor as the people originally called neo-cons where in fact
'hard right liberals", politically they were extreme left on social issues and hard right on national defense and foreign policy - the real neocons would support abortion rights. Neo-con, as used today is simply a perjorative for any Republican that someone wants to deride and dismiss.

I'll start with secular and logical reasons to be pro-life.

FWIW, I do not believe in unrestricted abortion on-demand but it presently is the law of the land, I believe in parental notification and I understand the desire for and support abortion for actual medical threats to the mother and possibly for cases of incest\rape but abortion as after-the-fact birth control is offensive to me. I oppose 'partial-birth' as a procedure under any circumstance as inhuman.


Everyone agrees that at the point of viability (live outside the womb), that a human prenate is in fact a human being with all due natural and legal rights and is deserviing of protection under those concepts. Other than using the idea of when the prenate can physically survive outside the womb, it is not possible to scientifically, ethically or otherwise determine a specific point in human development when the prenate 'becomes' a human being. Lacking an undefinable point where a 'group of cells' magically transmogrifies into a human being, logically the prenate is always a human being as it has no ability to develop into say, a chicken, a dog, or anything other than a human being.

In a legal context, if someone murders a pregnant woman and the murder results in the death of the prenate, many jurisdictions will charge the suspect with not one but two counts of murder. Murder is the taking of a human life. Therefore, if a prenate can be murdered, then it is, in fact, a human life. In this case, the intent of the murderer is irrelevant - it matters not if the murderer intended to kill the mother, or both the mother and prenate.

In reviewing the Declaration of Independence, we are guaranteed certain unalienable rights, specifically the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As citizens our rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are individual rights, and our right to exercise them only end when they interfere with the same rights of another citizen. Anyone born in the US is guaranteed rights as a citizen, but as before, is the birth act itself some magical transformation? If you don't believe in magic then, as before? when do we pin the point of transformation unless the prenate is essentially always a citizen from conception, same as its being a human.

Yet another legal\ethical reason to be against abortion is that at its' base, it is a form of discrimination. Similar to our repulsion at the idea of discrimination
on the basis of genetics (e.g., race) over which people have no control, why is it somehow acceptable to discriminate on age or development? Certainly legal rights and protections change as a person ages\develops, but what we see is that the real change is in the amount of self determination and personal responsibility. Our legal system goes to great lengths to identify and protect the less developed (be it age, or mental capacity), to the point of creating special classes and special crime definitions when the system determines that a person is in a significantly less powerful position compared to their victimizer (e.g., Special Victims Unit for sexual crimes against children, Civil Rights Commissions for racial minorities).

It is cognitive dissonance to suggest that the only determinant of a prenates' citizenship, or humanness, and by default it's access to or denial of full protection under the law, is the mother's desire to carry the prenate to term. In no other current legal concept is one human being's or one citizen's human or legal rights completely trumped by another. We used to allow that, it was called slavery, and we moved beyond it.

Ethically, abortion denies the prenate to the most fundamental aspect of the Natural Law, the right to life, based solely on the desire of the mother.

Legally, abortion denies the prenate the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, rights guaranteed to all citizens of the US, solely on the basis of an arbitrary selection of when the prenate 'becomes' a citizen.

Scientifically, abortion denies the prenate classification as a human being until viability, even though it has no capacity to ever become anything other than a human being, and contains the entire human genetic code at conception.

Notice I have not used God, Innocent, Evil, Theology, Belief or any other of the myriad of deeply help personal religious beliefs that a good many people use to justify their opposition ot abortion.

Next up will be justification for Capital Punishment.

Is prenate anything after conception?...if so I'ld much prefer the curches stance of "life begins in the blood" or something like that - i.e. when the embryo has blood.

But for country bumpkins like me. 1st 3months or less is when I support abortion - after that unless health is a concern put the child up for adoption if you don't want it.

In reviewing the Declaration of Independence, we are guaranteed certain unalienable rights, specifically the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. As citizens our rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are individual rights, and our right to exercise them only end when they interfer with the same rights of another citizen.
Define these Inalienable Rights, as applied to the Individual:

Life _________________________________________________

Liberty _______________________________________________

The Pursuit of Happiness ________________________________

A far more radical and unheard of solution would be for men and women to simply be responsible about having intercourse, and make sure they 1) want to procreate and 2) will raise another human being in a safe and nurturing environment..If the answers are "yes" then they should proceed...

If the answer is "no" then they should use the various natural and/or manmade prevention methods.

If their beliefs preclude the use of such methods, then they have already tacitly consented to becoming parents, and should embrace the resposibility thereof.

No religion, no politics, just accountability for ones actions as they apply to the life of another.

But this goes against all of your unmarried underage sex hype on the other thread.

But .....
Define "but" __________________

Define these Inalienable Rights, as applied to the Individual:From my perspective Stan:

Life : the right to life, freedom from arbitrary death at the hands of another

Liberty : right to self determination, freedom from arbitrary exercise of authority

The Pursuit of Happiness : This of course was originally the right to estate or property but modified in the Declaration of Independence, in this context it is the right to seek success as defined by the individual, freedom from arbitrary limits

From my perspective Stan:

Life : the right to life, freedom from arbitrary death at the hands of another

Liberty : right to self determination, freedom from arbitrary exercise of authority

The Pursuit of Happiness : This of course was originally the right to estate or property but modified in the Declaration of Independence, in this context it is the right to seek success as defined by the individual, freedom from arbitrary limits
Perspective ..... an interesting thing, eh?

Wouldn't many, if not most of the current laws and statutes be able to be defined or identified as arbitrary limits on Personal or Individual or Private Pursuit of Happiness?

That isn't even addressing Liberty as You've defined.

So you are in favor a big, intrusive government? You want politicians personally involved with a woman's uterus? You want politicians in the private bedrooms of grown adults throwing a penalty flag for illegal use of the weenie?

If a woman wants to murder her unborn child I want the Government involved, heck ya.

If a woman wants to murder her unborn child I want the Government involved, heck ya.
what if You want to continue arguing? Should the Goverment be involved in that as well?

If a woman wants to murder her unborn child I want the Government involved, heck ya.

If the Government can't do anything to stop the abortion due to prevailing law (Roe v Wade), would you support the bombing of an abortion clinic? Would you support the death penalty for an abortion doctor or the mother of the aborted child?

Now for a discussion on the ethical and logical justification for Capital Punishment:

As before, to clearly state my own belief - I support Capital Punishment as employed in the United States, and I do not find it to be in conflict with my pro-life stance.

The legal system in the US exists solely to preserve and protect the integrity of our society - that is, we are a nation of laws that are intended to drive and incent certain behaviors and to disincent and punish other behaviors. Our society is made up of 300 million people now, and we see behaviors across the gamut as would be expected - the legal system defines acceptable behavior at the individual level based on societal norms - that is, we collectively determine what is acceptable behavior, we then hold individuals to that standard, and we then define punishments for violations of those standards.

In the US, this means that not all states have Capital Punishment, it is determined by the will of the people in the individual States.

In cases of especially violent criminals, or other crimes where Capital Punishment is allowed in a given State, very specific legal standards are required in the determination of guilt, appellate systems exist, and the Death Sentence itself is typically required to be humane.

Capital Punishment is intended to serve two essential purposes, provide closure and punishment re: the acts of the convicted, and to serve as deterrant to others who may consider violent crimes.

Unlike abortion, where no jury of peers is involved, no legal standards are applied, and where, in cases of abortion as birth control no crime is committed, a Capital Trial is dealing with someone accused of commiting a crime against another person, and by default, against the society at large.

Society must protect itself first, and the individuals who make it up second. The defendant is accused of violating societal norms, they mount a defense, and the court makes a decision as to guilt. With a guilty verdict, the court then determines an appropriate punishment which may raise to sentencing the guilty to death.

Logically then, the primary difference is that abortion is presently a personal choice by the mother for indeterminate reasons (e.g., lifestyle, financial), where a Capital Trial is a legitimate, endorsed action of self-defense (punishment and deterrance) taken by society at large - usually as the result of a murder or other violent crime.

State sanctioned death sentences are ONLY the result of the commision of a Capital Crime against an individual and society at large, typically murder - a prenate has commited no crime.

State sanctioned death sentences require a trial by a jury of peers - there is no jury of peers for a prenate, only the desire or lack therof of the mother to carry it to term.

State sanctioned death sentences require a finding of fact beyond a reasonable doubt - a prenate is unable to enter evidence in its' defense.

State sanctioned death sentences are intended to function as a deterrant to other who might commit similar offenses - abortion does not deter prenates from being the result of pregnancy (intended or not).

State sanctioned death sentences have an appellate system - there is no appeal for the prenate on abortion, it is dead.

Perspective ..... an interesting thing, eh?

Wouldn't many, if not most of the current laws and statutes be able to be defined or identified as arbitrary limits on Personal or Individual or Private Pursuit of Happiness?

That isn't even addressing Liberty as You've defined.Merely a qualifier Stan, these are all MY thoughts.

See my post about the legal system above for what I see as the legal system's functions and purpose. Arbitrary would be if one person decided on their own, with no input\appeal for others, and no purpose or logical reason, perhaps capricious would be a better term but I think you know what I mean.

what if You want to continue arguing? Should the Goverment be involved in that as well?

Arguing and murder are a bit different.

If the Government can't do anything to stop the abortion due to prevailing law (Roe v Wade), would you support the bombing of an abortion clinic? Would you support the death penalty for an abortion doctor or the mother of the aborted child?

Great questions. No, I would not support the bombing of an abortion clinic. I would also not support the death penalty for the doctor who does abortions or the MOM of the aborted child because it's not a crime in some states but I do think it's very close to murder, and nobody should be called a MOM if they abort their own kid.

Oh how I missed all of this... ;)

Jim