A handful of Orthodox Jews have attended Iran's controversial conference questioning the Nazi genocide of the Jews - not because they deny the Holocaust but because they object to using it as justification for the existence of Israel.

Some of them belong to Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City), a group of a few thousand people which views Zionism - the movement to establish a Jewish national home or state in what was Palestine - as a "poison" threatening "true Jews".

A representative, UK-based Rabbi Aharon Cohen, told the conference he prayed "that the underlying cause of strife and bloodshed in the Middle East, namely the state known as Israel, be totally and peacefully dissolved". In its place, Rabbi Cohen said, should be "a regime fully in accordance with the aspirations of the Palestinians when Arab and Jew will be able to live peacefully together as they did for centuries".

Neturei Karta believes the very idea of an Israeli state goes against the Jewish religion. The book of Jewish law or Talmud, they say, teaches that believers may not use human force to create a Jewish state before the coming of the Messiah.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6171503.stm

You're not doing selective quotes are you Spider to try and justify your radical views? On the same site (today).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6173941.stm


Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has told a conference in Tehran questioning the Holocaust that Israel's days are numbered.

"Just as the USSR disappeared, soon the Zionist regime will disappear," he said to the applause of the participants.


Same article:


Many Iranians must be wondering why they have the right to deny the Holocaust with impunity, but not to question their own leaders without risking jail, our correspondent says.

In recent months, newspapers have been closed, journalists jailed and students penalised for engaging in any sort of political activity in Iran.


Good question (see above, not yours).

Paul

Oh brother

Perhaps Spider it is because a fringe group is looking to grab some headlines?

Pretty shocking don't you think - effective enough we are talking about it on the other side of the world.

Of course, they are acting as tools for Ahmadinejad and the other anti-semitic forces out there, whether that was their intent or not.

Of course, "attend and spout nonsense if you want to see tomorrow." How can you possibly believe anything coming out of Iran.

You're not doing selective quotes are you Spider to try and justify your radical views? On the same site (today).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6173941.stm

Quote:
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has told a conference in Tehran questioning the Holocaust that Israel's days are numbered.

"Just as the USSR disappeared, soon the Zionist regime will disappear," he said to the applause of the participants.


Same article:

Quote:
Many Iranians must be wondering why they have the right to deny the Holocaust with impunity, but not to question their own leaders without risking jail, our correspondent says.

In recent months, newspapers have been closed, journalists jailed and students penalised for engaging in any sort of political activity in Iran.


Good question (see above, not yours).

PaulI hardly have radical views, Paul, and certainly did not express any views, radical or otherwise, in my post. My post was entirely about Neturei Karta, an orthodox jewish organisation. I have no idea why you should try to counter that with quotes from the Iranian president and what Iranians can and cannot do in their country. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of my post.

I have no idea why you should try to counter that with quotes from the Iranian president and what Iranians can and cannot do in their country. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of my post.

Um, maybe if there is no free speech in Iran, then just maybe this is a dog and pony show, with no one in the country able to offer a dissenting view... d'ya think?

And I would think even you would agree that the views of the Iranian president are quite important in that region, wouldn't you? After all, you seem to put a lot of store in the US and others talking to him over Iraq.

Perhaps Spider it is because a fringe group is looking to grab some headlines?
.. Pretty shocking don't you think - effective enough we are talking about it on the other side of the world.
.. Of course, they are acting as tools for Ahmadinejad and the other anti-semitic forces out there, whether that was their intent or not.Why should it be shocking, John, that a small group should join a conference that discusses something that is central to their beliefs? Could it be simply because you believe something different?

Would it be shocking if a small group opposing abortion joined a conference that discussed population control? Or would that not be shocking - because your views are more in alignment with that small group?

Would that not be trying to 'grab some headlines?'

Would they not be 'acting as tools' for Roman Catholisism 'whether that was their intent or not?'

Can't a small group (Neturei Karta or abortion opponents) attend conferences that serve their purposes without ill-intent being placed on it?

Um, maybe if there is no free speech in Iran, then just maybe this is a dog and pony show, with no one in the country able to offer a dissenting view... d'ya think?
.. And I would think even you would agree that the views of the Iranian president are quite important in that region, wouldn't you? After all, you seem to put a lot of store in the US and others talking to him over Iraq.But that has nothing to do with certain jews and their beliefs about Israel.

If you wish to discuss Iran, and Iranian free speech, and Ahmadinejad, start another thread on that topic and I will happily join you there.

But that has nothing to do with certain jews and their beliefs about Israel.

Sure it does. You can't claim with a straight face they are expressing their true beliefs.

Yes Penolope, true in that they believe Zionism to be heresy. Now why they would attend an abomination like this is another story. Publicity for their cause I guess, which happens to be the destruction of their own country. :crosseye:

In related news, Ahmadinejad predicts Israel will disappear 'like USSR' (http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/wars/Ahmadinejad_predicts_Israel_will_disappear_like_US SR13009469.php).

This is the guy we are supposed to "talk" with? :rolleyes:

A handful of Orthodox Jews have attended Iran's controversial conference questioning the Nazi genocide of the Jews - not because they deny the Holocaust but because they object to using it as justification for the existence of Israel.

Some of them belong to Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City), a group of a few thousand people which views Zionism - the movement to establish a Jewish national home or state in what was Palestine - as a "poison" threatening "true Jews".

A representative, UK-based Rabbi Aharon Cohen, told the conference he prayed "that the underlying cause of strife and bloodshed in the Middle East, namely the state known as Israel, be totally and peacefully dissolved". In its place, Rabbi Cohen said, should be "a regime fully in accordance with the aspirations of the Palestinians when Arab and Jew will be able to live peacefully together as they did for centuries".

Neturei Karta believes the very idea of an Israeli state goes against the Jewish religion. The book of Jewish law or Talmud, they say, teaches that believers may not use human force to create a Jewish state before the coming of the Messiah.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/6171503.stm Which is Your real question Frederick? The thread-titled "Jews attending the Conference" thing, or your inferred "should Israel really exist"?

In related news, Ahmadinejad predicts Israel will disappear 'like USSR' (http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/wars/Ahmadinejad_predicts_Israel_will_disappear_like_US SR13009469.php).

This is the guy we are supposed to "talk" with? :rolleyes:

:thumb: the whole thing is shocking to me. Tell me about it: trying to talk rationally to an insane, Napoleonic Jew hater. fun, fun.

Oh, by the way, Happy Hanukkah to everyone...it starts on the 16th.:hanuk:

Merry Chrismahanukwanzakah to you. Oh, and a happy Festivus! (for the rest of us)

Which is Your real question Frederick? The thread-titled "Jews attending the Conference" thing, or your inferred "should Israel really exist"?Actually, Neil, I wasn't really asking a question, but this assumption is more on-topic than all the sidetracks about Iran.

I felt to post these clips ('selective quotes,' Paul called them) because of a post Penelope made some weeks ago that seemed to support what many people apparently believe - that all arabs believe in jihad and destruction of the West, christianity, democracy or whatnot, and that all jews are pro-Israel. Interesting read...arabsforisrael.com
.. Also take a look at Nonie Darwish's book - Now they call me infidel
.. She is daughter of an Egyptian Military leader who has renounced jihad ...
I said at the time that a wide variety of different opinions exist in the Middle East, including certain jewish groups who are anti-Israel and pro-arab. And now, when proof of the existence of one such group is in the news, I felt to draw attention to it.

I said at the time that a wide variety of different opinions exist in the Middle East, including certain jewish groups who are anti-Israel and pro-arab. And now, when proof of the existence of one such group is in the news, I felt to draw attention to it.

I don't think anyone would deny that there are Jewish people who are anti-Israel, just as there are Americans who are anti-USA and Australians who are Anti-Australian. You can't please all of the people all of the time!

Paul

I don't think anyone would deny that there are Jewish people who are anti-Israel, just as there are Americans who are anti-USA and Australians who are Anti-Australian. You can't please all of the people all of the time!But a wise person, I would suggest, Paul, would listen to the opinions of these dissenting groups and try to learn *why* they take what seem to be such odd views. They are, after all, closer the heart of the matter - and I would again suggest, closer to the truth - than we are. (That doesn't mean they have necessarily discovered the truth - only that they are closer to it and have greater potential of discovering it than we have.)

You may not be too interested why a fringe group of Australians is anti-Australia, but I'm sure you (British, living in America) would be quite interested why a fringe group of Americans is anti-American. (I mean *anti-* not just having different political views.) I mean, wouldn't it interest you why a particular group of Americans in this day and age would want to turn back the clock and rejoin Great Britain, for example?

As the Middle East is the centre of much discontent in the world today, I think it benefits us all if we can get closer to the truth than we are at present. And if certain fringe groups are closer to the truth, listening to their views without prejudging it, may give us an opportunity to discover the truth for ourselves.

That's better than relying on the brainwashing dished out at 5pm every night on the tube, don't you think?

But a wise person, I would suggest, Paul, would listen to the opinions of these dissenting groups and try to learn *why* they take what seem to be such odd views. They are, after all, closer the heart of the matter - and I would again suggest, closer to the truth - than we are. (That doesn't mean they have necessarily discovered the truth - only that they are closer to it and have greater potential of discovering it than we have.)

You may not be too interested why a fringe group of Australians is anti-Australia, but I'm sure you (British, living in America) would be quite interested why a fringe group of Americans is anti-American. (I mean *anti-* not just having different political views.) I mean, wouldn't it interest you why a particular group of Americans in this day and age would want to turn back the clock and rejoin Great Britain, for example?

As the Middle East is the centre of much discontent in the world today, I think it benefits us all if we can get closer to the truth than we are at present. And if certain fringe groups are closer to the truth, listening to their views without prejudging it, may give us an opportunity to discover the truth for ourselves.

That's better than relying on the brainwashing dished out at 5pm every night on the tube, don't you think?


The 5pm news is controlled by the fringe; actually the kook fringe. That is where your views are being expressed.

You may not be too interested why a fringe group of Australians is anti-Australia, but I'm sure you (British, living in America) would be quite interested why a fringe group of Americans is anti-American. (I mean *anti-* not just having different political views.) I mean, wouldn't it interest you why a particular group of Americans in this day and age would want to turn back the clock and rejoin Great Britain, for example?


Spider,

Maybe I'd give them a couple of minutes and then move on.

My point is, there will always be people who are not happy with the way things are. Heck, back in the day, there were these crazy Brits who wanted to leave King and Country, take a hazardous crossing over a big rough ocean and set up stall in a new land.

Do you think people who believe Texas should be given back to Mexico should be taken seriously? Do you think people who believe that Native American tribes who had settled Manhattan previously should be given back ownership of Broadway and 5th Avenue and back payed rent that they would otherwise have got as damages for lost earnings?

It can go on and on Spider, there will always be people who want something more, something different.

Where do you draw a line and decide this is really nonsensical, depsite any logical claim they may have, and admit it ain't gonna happen? By the way, I would argue in both the above cases, these are stronger claims than there are for there not being a State of Israel, since at least the latter has historic precedence (without even getting into the religious ordained aspects of it).

Paul

The 5pm news is controlled by the fringe; actually the kook fringe. That is where your views are being expressed.????!

????!

nevermind. I take this stuff too personally. I keep asking myself, "if there was no holocaust, then where are 11 of my great uncles and aunts?" The whole thing is crazy. I have talked with elderly people who spent their youth in concentration camps, and to even talk about this conference in the forum is abominable in my opinion. This is only my opinion, so I don't expect anyone else to agree with me.

I read between the lines when I review the political posts in this forum; it doesn't take a genius to decipher how certain members view different controversial topics.

I felt to post these clips ('selective quotes,' Paul called them) because of a post Penelope made some weeks ago that seemed to support what many people apparently believe - that all arabs believe in jihad and destruction of the West, christianity, democracy or whatnot, and that all jews are pro-Israel.
I said at the time that a wide variety of different opinions exist in the Middle East, including certain jewish groups who are anti-Israel and pro-arab. And now, when proof of the existence of one such group is in the news, I felt to draw attention to it.

Maybe you need to read your clip a little better. You are putting words in my mouth which are exactly the opposite of my post. Is that how you "discuss" - by falsehood? Can we trust your current posts to be unmanipulated?

My post gave links to a legitimate organization - arabs for israel that doesn't believe in the jihad and to a book by another muslim woman who publically renounces jihad. I don't see how those imply that "that all arabs believe in jihad and destruction of the West, christianity, democracy or whatnot, and that all jews are pro-Israel."

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/jennihul/arthur.jpg

Maybe you need to read your clip a little better. You are putting words in my mouth which are exactly the opposite of my post. Is that how you "discuss" - by falsehood? Can we trust your current posts to be unmanipulated?
.. My post gave links to a legitimate organization - arabs for israel that doesn't believe in the jihad and to a book by another muslim woman who publically renounces jihad. I don't see how those imply that "that all arabs believe in jihad and destruction of the West, christianity, democracy or whatnot, and that all jews are pro-Israel."Then I clearly misunderstood your earlier post - I apologize.

Your earlier post for reference--
Interesting read...

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/

Also take a look at Nonie Darwish's book - Now they call me infidel

She is daughter of an Egyptian Military leader who has renounced jihad and exposes the Arab culture of programmed hate and abuse of women.

Another interesting book is "While Europe Slept" by Bruce Bawer. He describes in a succinct manner, the threat of fundamentalist Islam from within Europe, a threat that has claimed many lives and Europe's failure to deal with the problem.In the context of that other thread, you were saying, I understood, that this was an unusual situation - arabs speaking against jihad.

My reply then was to point out that that is not at all unusual, that many different views exist in the Middle East and I went on to list some. Including jews who were anti-Israel.

Regarding your recent objection, even on re-reading my post, I don't see what you are complaining about. I certainly didn't put any words in your mouth, nor did I have you saying the opposite of what you said. I referred to...
...a post Penelope made some weeks ago that seemed to support what many people apparently believe - that all arabs believe in jihad and destruction of the West, christianity, democracy or whatnot, and that all jews are pro-Israel.

Your post certainly does *support* what many people believe - that all arabs believe in jihad. It doesn't say it - and I didn't say it did. But it does support the view by the mere fact that you put forward a dissenting voice in a manner to suggest this was unusual.

All that aside - What do you actually believe? I am a little confused now as to your stance.

How in the world does posting links to arabs that don't believe in jihad indicate that all arabs believe in jihad. I'm confused...

I posted the links to demonstrate an arab view of the irrationality of jihad and proof of the indoctrination of hate.

wow u guys need 2 b more positive k?

negative crap needs to stop.



k? :thumb:

wow u guys need 2 b more positive k?



k? :thumb:
splendid. you can have your last word since you appear to believe you have the world by its tail.

nevermind. I take this stuff too personally. I keep asking myself, "if there was no holocaust, then where are 11 of my great uncles and aunts?" The whole thing is crazy. I have talked with elderly people who spent their youth in concentration camps, and to even talk about this conference in the forum is abominable in my opinion. This is only my opinion, so I don't expect anyone else to agree with me.


I agree with you 100%. I have even seen the IBM cards used to process the camp members. Few realize it but the latest IBM equipment of the time was used to facilitate the process. Those numbers tattooed on their arms was because of that. My neighbor as a child was a survivor.

However, even ignoring the mountains of evidence, their are very few races who have not faced ethnic cleansing. Right now it is going on in Africa, it happen in Serbia, Tibet, USA (Indians) and so on...

What is the solution? Would those who favor the Israeli state also favor giving a state or two to the Indians? or give Tibetans a place in Norway?

Spider has made a point that not all consider the solution to be correct and I think it is good to see that their is always another way to look at a topic. I for one learned a lot as I had no idea there was a Jewish sect that had that outlook.

Though we might not like to think others totally dismiss what we consider reality, it is very helpful to see how they see the world and how they deal with various forms of evidence.