The Battle For Your Mind

Persuasion & Brainwashing Techniques
Being Used On The Public Today

By Dick Sutphen

The following is an expanded version of a talk Dick Sutphen delivered at the World Congress of Professional Hypnotists Convention in Las Vegas, Nevada. Although the paper carries a 1984 copyright to protect the contents from unlawful duplication for sale, Dick invites individuals to make copies and give them to friends or anyone in a position to communicate this information. Since the paper was released, it has been distributed to millions and is currently available on dozens of Websites. As a result of this awareness, Dick has been contacted by law enforcement officers, the BBC and investigative reporters. On numerous occasions, the information has helped to bring public attention to the misuse of conversion tactics.

Some government agencies don't want this information generally known, for the techniques are used in armed forces basic training. Some Christian Fundamentalists, cults, and human-potential trainings would also prefer that the public remain unaware of how they are recruiting new members.

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Summary of Contents:

The Birth of Conversion/Brainwashing in Christian Revivalism in 1735.
The Pavlovian explanation of the three brain phases.
Born-Again preachers: Step-by-step, how they conduct a revival and the expected physiological results.
The "voice roll" technique used by preachers, lawyers and hypnotists. New trance-inducing churches.
The six steps to conversion.
The decognition process. Thought-stopping techniques.
The "sell it by zealot" technique.
True believers and mass movements.
Persuasion techniques: "Yes set", "Imbedded Commands", "Shock and Confusion", and the "Interspersal Techniques."
Subliminals.
Vibrato and ELF waves. Inducing trance with vibrational sound. Even professional observers will be "possessed" at charismatic gatherings. The "only hope" technique to attend and not be converted.
Non-detectable Neurophone programming through the skin.
The medium for mass take-over.
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I'm going to talk about conversion, which is a nice word for brainwashing. Everything I'll share only exposes the surface of the problem. I don't know how the misuse of these techniques can be stopped other than through public awareness. It isn't possible to legislate against what often cannot be detected; and if those who legislate are using these techniques, there is little hope of affecting laws to govern usage.

In talking about mind manipulation, I am talking about my own business. I know it, and I know how effective it can be. I produce hypnosis and subliminal tapes and, in some of my seminars, I use conversion tactics to assist participants to become independent and self-sufficient. But, any time I use these techniques, I point out that I am using them, and those attending have a choice to participate or not. They're also aware of the desired result of participation.

So, to begin, I want to share a basic fact about brainwashing: IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF MAN, NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN BRAINWASHED AND REALIZED, OR BELIEVED, THAT HE HAD BEEN BRAINWASHED. Those who have been brainwashed will usually passionately defend their manipulators, claiming they have simply been "shown the light" ... or have been transformed in miraculous ways.



The Birth of Conversion

Any study of brainwashing has to begin with a study of Christian revivalism in eighteenth century America. Apparently, Jonathan Edwards accidentally discovered the techniques during a religious crusade in 1735 in Northampton, Massachusetts. By inducing guilt and acute apprehension and by increasing the tension, the sinners attending his revival meetings would break down and completely submit. Technically, what Edwards was doing was creating conditions that wipe the brain slate clean so that the mind accepts new programming. He would tell those attending, "You're a sinner! You're destined for hell!"

As a result, one person committed suicide and another attempted suicide. The neighbors of the suicidal converts related that they, too, were affected so deeply that, although they had found "eternal salvation," they were obsessed with a diabolical temptation to end their own lives.

Once a preacher, cult leader, manipulator or authority figure creates the brain phrase to wipe the brain-slate clean, his subjects are open to new programming. New input, in the form of suggestions, can be substituted for their previous ideas. Because Edwards didn't turn his message positive until the end of the revival, many accepted the negative suggestions and acted, or desired to act, upon them.

Charles J. Finney was another Christian revivalist who used the same techniques four years later in mass religious conversions in New York. The techniques are still being used today by Christian revivalists, cults, human-potential training, some business rallies and the U.S. armed services.

Let me point out here that I don't think most revivalist preachers realize or know they are using brainwashing techniques. Edwards simply stumbled upon a technique that worked, and others copied it and have continued to copy it for over two hundred years. And the more sophisticated our knowledge and technology become, the more effective the conversion. I feel strongly that this is one of the major reasons for the increasing rise in Christian fundamentalism, especially the televised variety, while most of the orthodox religions are declining.



The 3 Brain Phases

The Christians may have been the first to successfully formulate brainwashing, but we have to look to Pavlov, the Russian scientist, for a technical explanation. In the early 1900s, his work with animals opened the door to further investigations with humans. After the revolution in Russia, Lenin was quick to see the potential of applying Pavlov's research to his own ends.

Three distinct and progressive states of transmarginal inhibition were identified by Pavlov. The first is the Equivalent phase, in which the brain gives the same response to both strong and weak stimuli. Second is the Paradoxical phase, in which the brain responds more actively to weak stimuli than to strong. Third is the Ultra-Paradoxical phase, in which conditioned responses and behavior patterns turn from positive to negative or from negative to positive.

With the progressions through each phase, the degree of conversion becomes more effective and complete. The ways to achieve conversion are many and varied, but the usual first step in religious or political brainwashing is to work on the emotions of an individual or group until they reach an abnormal level of anger, fear, excitement or nervous tension.

The progressive result of this mental condition is to impair judgment and increase suggestibility. The more this condition can be maintained or intensified, the more it compounds. Once catharsis or the first brain phase is reached, the complete mental takeover becomes easier. Existing mental programming can be replaced with new patterns of thinking and behavior.

Other often-used physiological weapons to modify normal brain functions are fasting, radical or high sugar diets, physical discomforts, regulation of breathing, mantra chanting in meditation, the disclosure of awesome mysteries, special lighting and sound effects, programmed response to incense, or intoxicating drugs.

The same results can be obtained in contemporary psychiatric treatment by electric shock treatments and even by purposely lowering a patient's blood sugar level with insulin injections.

Before I talk about exactly how some of the techniques are applied, I want to point out that hypnosis and conversion tactics are two distinctly different things -- and that conversion techniques are far more powerful. However, the two are often mixed ... with powerful results.



How Revivalist Preachers Work

If you'd like to see a revivalist preacher at work, there are probably several in your city. Go to the church or tent early and sit in the rear, about three-quarters of the way back. Most likely repetitive music will be played while the people come in for the service. A repetitive beat, ideally ranging from 45 to 72 beats per minute (a rhythm close to the beat of a human heart), is very hypnotic and can generate an eyes-open altered state of consciousness in a high percentage of people. And, once you are in an Alpha state, you are at least 25 times as suggestible as you would be in full Beta consciousness. The music is probably the same for every service, or incorporates the same beat, and many of the people will go into an altered state almost immediately upon entering the sanctuary. Subconsciously, they recall their state of mind from previous services and respond according to the post-hypnotic programming.

Watch the people waiting for the service to begin. Many will exhibit external signs of trance -- body relaxation and slightly dilated eyes. Often, they begin swaying back and forth with their hands in the air while sitting in their chairs. Next, the assistant pastor will come out. He usually speaks with a "voice roll".

Voice Roll Technique

A "voice roll" is a patterned, paced style used by hypnotists when inducing a trance. It is also used by many lawyers (several of the most famous are highly trained hypnotists), when they desire to entrench a point firmly in the minds of the jurors. A voice roll can sound as if the speaker were talking to the beat of a metronome, or it may sound as though he were emphasizing every word in a monotonous, patterned style. The words will usually be delivered at the rate of 35 to 60 beats per minute, maximizing the hypnotic effect.

Now the assistant pastor begins the "build-up" process. He induces an altered state of consciousness and/or begins to generate the excitement and the expectations of the audience. Next, a group of young women in "sweet and pure" chiffon dresses might come out to sing a song. Gospel songs are great for building excitement and involvement. In the middle of the song, one of the girls might be "smitten by the Spirit" and fall down or react as if possessed by the Holy Spirit. This effectively increases the intense atmosphere in the room. At this point, hypnosis and conversion tactics are being mixed. And the result is the audience's attention is now totally focused upon the communication while the environment becomes more exciting or tense.

Right about this time, when an eyes-open mass-induced Alpha mental level has been achieved, they will usually pass the collection plate. In the background, a 45-beat-per-minute voice roll from the assistant preacher might exhort, "Give to God ...Give to God...Give to God ..." And the audience does give. God may not get the money, but his already wealthy representative will.

Next, the fire-and-brimstone preacher will come out. He induces fear and increases the tension by talking about "the devil", "going to hell" or the forthcoming Armageddon.

In the last such rally I attended, the preacher talked about the blood that would soon be running out of every faucet in the land. He was also obsessed with a "bloody ax of God," which attendees had seen hanging above the pulpit the previous week. I have no doubt that some people saw it -- the power of suggestion given to a group of people in hypnosis assures that at least 10 to 25 percent would see whatever he suggested they see.

In most revivalist gatherings, "testifying" or "witnessing" usually follows the fear-based sermon. People from the audience come up on stage and relate their stories. "I was crippled and now I can walk!" "I had arthritis and now it's gone!" It is a psychological manipulation that works. After listening to numerous case histories of miraculous healings, the average guy in the audience with a minor problem is sure he can be healed. The room is charged with fear, guilt, intense excitement and expectations.

Now those who want to be healed are frequently lined up around the edge of the room, or they are told to come down to the front. The preacher might touch them on the head firmly and scream, "Be healed!" This releases the psychic energy and, for many, catharsis results. Catharsis is a purging of repressed emotions. Individuals might cry, fall down or even go into spasms. And if catharsis is effected, they stand a chance of being healed. In catharsis, the brain-slate is temporarily wiped clean and the new suggestion is accepted.

For some, the healing may be permanent. For many, it will last four days to a week -- a week is, incidentally, how long a hypnotic suggestion given to a somnambulistic subject will usually last. Even if the healing doesn't last, if they come back every week the power of suggestion may continually override the problem ... or sometimes, sadly, it can mask a physical problem which could prove to be very detrimental to the individual in the long run.

I'm not saying that legitimate healings do not take place. They do. Maybe the individual was ready to let go of the negativity that caused the problem in the first place; maybe it was the work of God. Yet I contend that it can be explained with existing knowledge of brain/mind function.

The techniques and staging will vary from church to church. Many use "speaking in tongues" to generate catharsis in some while the spectacle creates intense excitement in the observers.

The use of hypnotic and conversion techniques by religions is sophisticated, and professionals are assuring that they become ever more effective. A man in Los Angeles is designing, building and reworking a lot of churches around the county. He tells ministers what they need and how to use it. This man's track record indicates that the congregation and the monetary income will double if the minister follows his instructions. He admits that about 80 percent of his efforts are in the sound system and lighting.

Powerful sound and the proper use of lighting are of primary importance in inducing an altered state of consciousness -- I've been using them for years in my own seminars. However, my participants are fully aware of the process and what they can expect as a result of their participation.


6 Conversion Techniques

Cults and human-potential training companies are always looking for new converts. To attain them, many use conversion tactics, which must be effective within a short space of time -- usually a weekend, but in some cases as quickly as a single day. The following are the six primary techniques used to generate the conversion.

Conversion Tactic 1: The meetings or training takes place in an area where participants are cut off from the outside world: a private home, a remote or rural setting, or a hotel ballroom where the participants are allowed only limited bathroom usage. In human-potential trainings, the controllers will give a lengthy talk about the importance of "keeping agreements" in life. The participants are told, "If you don't keep your agreements, your life will never work." Generally, this is good advice, but the controllers are subverting a positive human value for selfish purposes. The participants vow to themselves and their trainer that they will keep their agreements. Anyone who doesn’t concur will be intimidated into agreement or forced to leave the training. The next step is to get the participants to agree to complete the training, thus assuring a high percentage of conversions for the organization. They will usually have to agree not to take drugs, smoke and sometimes not to eat ... or they are given such a short meal break that it creates tension. One of the real reasons for the agreements is to alter internal chemistry, which generates anxiety and hopefully causes at least a slight malfunction of the nervous system, which in turn increases the conversion potential.

Before the gathering is complete, the agreement's manipulation will be used to ensure that the new converts go out and find new participants. They are intimidated into agreeing to bring in at least two potential converts. Since the importance of keeping agreements is so high on their priority list, the converts will twist the arms of everyone they know, attempting to talk them into attending the free introductory session offered at a future date by the training organization. The new converts are zealots. The inside term for merchandising one of the largest and most successful human-potential trainings is, "sell it by zealot!"

At least a million people are graduates and a good percentage have been left with a mental activation button that assures their future loyalty and assistance if the guru figure or organization calls. Think about the potential political implications of hundreds of thousands of zealots programmed to campaign for their guru.

Be wary of an organization of this type that offers follow-up sessions after the seminar. Follow-up sessions might be weekly meetings or inexpensive seminars given on a regular basis which the organization will attempt to talk you into taking. These regularly scheduled events are used to maintain control. As the early Christian revivalists found, long-term control is dependent upon a good follow-up system.

Conversion Tactic 2: A schedule is maintained that causes physical and mental fatigue. This is primarily accomplished by long hours in which the participants are given no opportunity for relaxation or reflection.

Conversion Tactic 3: Techniques are used to increase the tension in the room or environment.

Conversion Tactic 4: Uncertainty. One of the most effective ways of creating uncertainty is to subject the participants to the fear of being "put on the spot" or encountered by the trainers who play upon guilt feelings, or convince the participants to verbally relate their innermost secrets in front of the others. Activities that emphasize the removal of masks is another powerful ploy. One of the most successful human-potential seminars forces the participants to stand on a stage in front of the entire audience while being verbally attacked by the trainers. A public poll showed that the most fearful of all situations is to speak to an audience. It ranked above window washing outside the 85th floor of an office building. So you can imagine the fear and tension this situation generates within the seminar participants who have agreed to complete the training. Many faint, but most cope with the stress by mentally going away. They literally go into an Alpha state, which automatically opens them to being 25 to 200 times more suggestible. And another loop of the downward spiral into conversion is successfully effected.

Conversion Tactic 5: The introduction of jargon -- new terms that have meaning only to the "insiders" who have participated in the training. Vicious language is also frequently used to purposely make participants uncomfortable.

I'm not saying that good does not result from participation in such gatherings. But it is important for people to know what has happened and to be aware that continual involvement may not be in their best interest.

Over the years, I've conducted professional seminars to teach people to be hypnotists, trainers and counselors. I've had many of those who conduct human-potential training and rallies (from the training companies who use the tactics I've just described) come to me and say, "I know what I'm doing works, but I don't know why." After showing them how and why, many have gotten out of the business or have decided to approach it differently or in a much more loving and supportive manner.

Many of these trainers have become personal friends, and it scares us all to have experienced the power of one person with a microphone and a room full of people. Add a little charisma and you can count on a high percentage of conversion. The sad truth is that a high percentage of people seem to want to become true believers and give away their power.

Cult gatherings or human-potential trainings are an ideal environment to observe firsthand what is technically called the "Stockholm Syndrome". This is a situation in which those who are intimidated, controlled or made to suffer, begin to love, admire and even sometimes sexually desire their controllers or captors.

But let me inject a word of warning here: If you think you can attend such gatherings and not be affected, you are probably wrong. A perfect example is the case of a woman who went to Haiti on a Guggenheim Fellowship to study Haitian Voodoo. In her report, she related how the music eventually induced uncontrollable bodily movement and an altered state of consciousness. Although she understood the process and thought herself above it, when she began to feel herself become vulnerable to the music, she attempted to fight it and turned away. Anger or resistance almost always assures conversion. A few moments later she was possessed by the music and began dancing in a trance around the Voodoo meeting house. A brain phase had been induced by the music and excitement, and she awoke feeling reborn. The only hope of attending such gatherings without being affected is to be the Buddha and allow no positive or negative emotions to surface. Few people are capable of such detachment.

I once attended est (Erhard Seminar Training). The training is no longer offered, although a current incarnation of the seminar is called The Forum. My goal in attending was to be an observer -- to be Buddha throughout the process, which took place in a Phoenix hotel ballroom with 200 people attending. I remained detached until late afternoon of the final day, when a doctor stood up and accused the est trainer of using brainwashing tactics. The incensed trainer argued back, using ridiculous Zen riddles to try to intimidate the doctor.

After 45 minutes of ranting, the trainer began using the other participants against the protesting doctor, who was speaking the truth. That did it. I stood up, snapped a karate kick at an est staffer and took a spare microphone out of his hands (the kick was to distract and did not inflict pain). Then I verbally went after the trainer. He responded by yelling for his people to call the police. Both the doctor and I walked out of the training room as the police arrived. I'm probably still listed in the est computers as someone who doesn't keep agreements.

Before leaving the six conversion tactics, I should mention military boot camp. The Marine Corps talks about breaking men down before rebuilding them as new men -- as marines. That is exactly what they do, the same way a cult breaks its people down and rebuilds them as happy flower sellers on your local street corner. Every one of the six conversion techniques are used in boot camp. Considering the needs of the military, I'm not making a judgment as to whether this is good or bad. As a simple fact, these men are brainwashed. Those who won't submit must be discharged or spend much of their time in the brig.



Decognition Process

Once the initial conversion is effected, cults, armed services and similar groups cannot have cynicism among their members. Members must respond to commands and do as they are told, otherwise, they are dangerous to the organizational control. This is normally accomplished as a three-step Decognition Process.

Step One is Alertness Reduction: The controllers cause the nervous system to malfunction, making it difficult to distinguish between fantasy and reality. This can be accomplished in several ways. Poor diet is one; watch out for brownies and Koolaid. The sugar throws the nervous system off. More subtle is the "spiritual diet" used by many cults. They eat only vegetables and fruits; without the grounding of grains, nuts, seeds, dairy products, fish or meat, an individual becomes mentally spacey. Inadequate sleep is another primary way to reduce alertness, especially when combined with long hours of work or intense physical activity. Being bombarded with intense and unique experiences achieves the same result.

Step Two is Programmed Confusion: You are mentally assaulted while your alertness is being reduced as in Step One. This is accomplished with a deluge of new information, lectures, discussion groups, encounters or one-to-one processing, which usually amounts to the controller bombarding the individual with questions. During this phase of decognition, reality and illusion often merge and perverted logic is likely to be accepted.

Step Three is Thought Stopping: Techniques are used to cause the mind to go flat -- altered-state-of-consciousness techniques that initially induce calmness by giving the mind something simple to deal with that focuses awareness. The continued use brings on a feeling of elation and eventually hallucination. The result is the reduction of thought and eventually, if used long enough, the cessation of all thought and withdrawal from everyone and everything except that which the controllers direct. The mental takeover is then complete. It is important to be aware that when members or participants are instructed to use thought-stopping techniques, they are told that they will benefit by so doing: they will become better soldiers or attain enlightenment.

There are three primary techniques used for thought stopping. The first is Marching: The thump, thump, thump beat literally generates self-hypnosis and thus greater susceptibility to suggestion. In the early stages of his rise to power, Adolph Hitler used marching demonstrations and the excitement as a mass conversion technique for those attending his rallies, and in the decognition phase for his soldiers.

The second thought-stopping technique is Meditation. If you spend 90 minutes or more a day in meditation, after a few weeks, there is high probability that you will not return to full Beta consciousness. You will remain in a fixed state of Alpha for as long as you continue to meditate. I'm not saying this is bad. If you do it yourself, it may be very beneficial. But know that you are causing your mind to go flat. I've worked with meditators on an EEG machine and the results are conclusive: the more you meditate, the flatter your mind becomes until, eventually and especially if used to excess or in combination with decognition, all thought ceases. Some spiritual groups call this nirvana -- which is just another manipulation. The mental state is simply a predictable physiological result. If heaven on earth is non-thinking and non-involvement, I really question why we are here.

The third thought-stopping technique is Chanting, and often chanting in meditation. Speaking in tongues could also be included in this category.

All three thought-stopping techniques produce an altered state of consciousness. This may be desirable if you are controlling the process, for you also control the input. I personally use at least one self-hypnosis programming session every day and I know how beneficial it is for me. But you need to know if you use these techniques to the degree of remaining continually in Alpha that, although you'll be very mellow, you'll also be more suggestible.

Some Christian Fundamentalists,

What do you mean by Fundamentalists? Any Christian that believes in the Bible as God's word is a Fundamentalist - it's all about sticking to the Fundamentals in other words the basics, the core.

Paul

True Believers & Mass Movements

Before ending this section, I want to talk about the people who are most susceptible to conversion and joining mass movements. I am convinced that at least a third of the population are what Eric Hoffer calls true believers. They are joiners and followers ... people who want to give away their power. They look for answers, meaning and enlightenment outside themselves.

Hoffer's book The True Believer (Harper & Row, 1951) is a classic on mass movements. He says, "True believers are not intent on bolstering and advancing a cherished self, but are those craving to be rid of an unwanted self. They are followers, not because of a desire for self-advancement, but because it can satisfy their passion for self-renunciation!" Hoffer also says that true believers "are eternally incomplete and eternally insecure."

In my years of conducting seminar trainings, I have constantly run into true believers. All I can do is advise them to seek the True Self within, where meaningful personal answers will be found. I teach that the basics of spirituality are self-responsibility (karma) and the attainment of self-actualization (being compassionate, while also accepting others without judgment, expectations, blame or attempting to control.) But most of the true believers just tell me that I'm not spiritual and go looking for someone who will give them the dogma and structure they desire.

Never underestimate the potential danger of these people. They can easily be molded into fanatics who will gladly work and die for their holy cause. It is a substitute for their lost faith in themselves and offers a substitute for individual hope. Hitler's Brown Shirts were true believers. The Moral Majority is made up of true believers. All cults are composed of true believers. You'll find them in politics, churches, businesses and social-cause groups. They are the fanatics in these organizations.

Mass Movements will usually have a charismatic leader. The followers want to convert others to their way of living or impose a new way of life -- if necessary, by legislating laws forcing others to their view, as evidenced by the activities of the Moral Majority. This means enforcement by guns or punishment, which is the bottom line in law enforcement.

A common hatred, enemy or devil is essential to the success of a mass movement. Hitler's devil was the Jews; the Born-Again Christians have Satan himself, but that isn't enough -- they've added the New Age and all who oppose their integration of church and politics, as evidenced in the political reelection campaigns against those who opposite their views. In revolutions, the devil is usually the ruling power or aristocracy. Some human-potential movements are far too clever to ask their graduates to join anything, thus labeling themselves a cult -- but, upon close examination, you'll find that their devil is everyone who hasn't taken their training.

There are mass movements without devils but they seldom attain major status. True believers are mentally unbalanced or insecure people, or those without hope or friends. People don't look for allies when they love, but they do when they hate or become obsessed with a cause. And those who desire a new life and a new order feel the old ways must be eliminated before the new order can be built.



Persuasion Techniques

Persuasion isn't technically brainwashing, but it is a manipulation of the human mind, without the manipulated party being aware what caused his opinion shift. I only have time to very basically introduce you to a few of the many techniques in use today, but the basis of persuasion is always to access your right brain. The left half of your brain is analytical and rational. The right half is creative and imaginative. That is overly simplified but it makes my point. So, the idea is to distract the left brain and keep it busy. Ideally, the persuader generates an eyes-open altered state of consciousness, causing you to shift from Beta awareness into Alpha -- a shift that can be measured on an EEG machine.

First, let me give you an example of distracting the left brain. Politicians use these powerful techniques all the time; lawyers use many variations which, I've been told, they call tightening the noose.

Assume for a moment that you are watching a politician give a speech. First, he might generate what is called a yes set. These are statements that will cause most listeners to agree; they might even unknowingly nod their heads in agreement. Next come the truisms. These are usually facts that could be debated but, once the politician has his audience agreeing, the odds are in the politician's favor that the audience won't stop to think for themselves, thus continuing to agree. Last comes the suggestion. This is what the politician wants you to do and, since you've been agreeing all along, you could be persuaded to accept the suggestion. Now, if you'll listen closely to my political speech, you'll find that the first three statements are the yes set, the next three are truisms and the last is the suggestion.

"Ladies and gentlemen: are you angry about high food prices? Are you tired of astronomical gas prices? Are you sick of out-of-control inflation? Well, you know the Other Party allowed 18 percent inflation last year; you know crime has increased 50 percent nationwide in the last 12 months, and you know your paycheck hardly covers your expenses any more. Well, the answer to resolving these problems is to elect me, John Jones, to the U.S. Senate."

You've heard it all before. But you might also watch for what are called Imbedded Commands. As an example: On key words, the speaker makes a gesture with his left hand, which research has shown is more apt to access your right brain. Today's media-oriented politicians and spellbinders are often carefully trained by a whole new breed of specialists who are using every trick in the book -- both old and new -- to manipulate you into accepting their candidate.

The concepts and techniques of Neuro-Linguistics are so heavily protected that I found out the hard way that to even talk about them publicly or in print results in threatened legal action. Yet Neuro-Linguistic training is readily available to anyone willing to devote the time and pay the price. It is some of the most subtle and powerful manipulation I've ever seen. A good friend who recently attended a two-week seminar on Neuro-Linguistics found that many of those she talked to during the breaks were government people.

Another slippery manipulation is called an interspersal technique and the idea is to say one thing with words but plant a subconscious impression of something else in the minds of the listeners and viewers.

As an example, assume you are watching a television commentator make the following statement: "Senator Johnson is assisting local authorities to clear up the stupid mistakes of the companies contributing to the nuclear waste problems." It sounds like a statement of fact, but if the speaker emphasizes the right word and especially if he makes the proper hand gestures on the key words, you could be left with the subconscious impression that Senator Johnson is stupid. That was the subliminal goal of the statement and the speaker cannot be sued for libel.

Persuasion techniques are also frequently used on a much smaller scale with just as much effectiveness. The insurance salesman knows his pitch is likely to be more effective if he can get you to visualize something in your mind. This is right-brain communication. For instance, he might pause in his conversation, look slowly around your living room and say, "Can you just imagine this beautiful home burning to the ground?" Of course you can! It is one of your unconscious fears and in forcing you to visualize it, you are more likely to be manipulated into signing his insurance policy.

The cults, operating in every airport, use what I call shock and confusion techniques to distract the left brain and communicated directly with the right brain. While waiting for a plane, I once watched one operate for over an hour. He had a technique of almost jumping in front of someone. Initially, his voice was loud then dropped as he made his pitch to take a book and contribute money to the cause. Usually, when people are shocked, they immediately withdraw. In this case they were shocked by the strange appearance, sudden materialization and loud voice of the devotee. In other words, the people went into an Alpha state for security because they didn't want to confront the reality before them. In Alpha, they were highly suggestible so they responded to the suggestion of taking the book; the moment they took the book, they felt guilty and responded to the second suggestion: give money. We are all conditioned that if someone gives us something, we have to give them something in return. While watching this hustler, I was close enough to notice that many of the people he stopped exhibited an outward sign of Alpha -- their eyes dilated.

Subliminal Programming

Subliminals are hidden suggestions, perceived only by your subconscious mind. They can be audio suggestions, hidden behind music, or visual suggestions airbrushed or cleverly incorporated into a picture or design, or words/images flashed on a screen so fast that you don't consciously see them.

Some subliminal programming tapes offer verbal suggestions recorded at a low volume. I question the efficacy of this technique -- if subliminals are not perceptible, they cannot be effective, and subliminals recorded below the audible threshold are therefore useless. The oldest audio subliminal technique uses a voice that follows the volume of the music so subliminals are impossible to detect without a parametric equalizer. But this technique is patented and, when I wanted to develop my own line of subliminal audio cassettes, negotiations with the patent holder proved to be unsatisfactory. My attorney obtained copies of the patents which I gave to talented Hollywood sound engineers, asking them to create a new technique. They found a way to psychoacoustically modify and synthesize the suggestions so that they are projected in the same chord and frequency as the music, thus giving them the effect of being part of the music. But we found that in using this technique, there is no way to reduce various frequencies to detect the subliminals. In other words, although the suggestions are being heard by the subconscious mind, they cannot be monitored with even the most sophisticated equipment.

If we were able to come up with this technique as easily as we did, I can only imagine how sophisticated the technology has become, with government or advertising funding. And I shudder to think about the propaganda and commercial manipulation that we are exposed to on a daily basis. There is simply no way to know what is behind the music you hear. It may even be possible to hide a second voice behind the voice to which you are listening.

The series of books by Bryan Key, Ph.D. on subliminals in advertising and political campaigns, well documents the misuse in many areas, especially printed advertising in newspapers, magazines and posters.

The big question about subliminals is: do they work? Based upon the response from those who have used my tapes, the answer is yes. Subliminal suggestions behind the music in department stores can be advising customers not to shoplift. An East Coast department store chain reported a 37 percent reduction in thefts in the first nine months of testing.

A 1984 article in the technical newsletter Brain-Mind Bulletin states that as much as 99 percent of our cognitive activity may benon-conscious, according to the director of the Laboratory for Cognitive Psychophysiology at the University of Illinois. The lengthy report ends with the statement, "these findings support the use of subliminal approaches such as taped suggestions for weight loss and the therapeutic use of hypnosis and Neuro-Linguistic programming."



Mass Misuse

I could relate many stories that support subliminal programming, but I'd rather use my time to make you aware of even more subtle uses of such programming.

I have personally experienced sitting in a Los Angeles auditorium with over ten thousand people who were gathered to listen to a charismatic figure. Twenty minutes after entering the auditorium, I became aware that I was going in and out of an altered state. Those accompanying me experienced the same thing. Since it is our business, we were aware of what was happening, but those around us were not. By careful observation, what appeared to be spontaneous demonstrations were, in fact, artful manipulations. The only way I could figure how the eyes-open trance had been induced was to pipe a 6- to 7-cycle-per-second vibration into the room behind the air conditioner sound. That vibration generates Alpha, which would render the audience highly susceptible. Ten to 25 percent of the population is capable of a somnambulistic trance level. For these people, the suggestions of the speaker could potentially be accepted as commands.



Vibrato

Vibrato is the tremulous effect imparted in some vocal or instrumental music, and the cycle-per-second range causes people to go into an altered state of consciousness. At one period of English history, singers whose voices contained pronounced vibrato were not allowed to perform publicly because listeners would go into an altered state and have fantasies, often sexual in nature.

People who attend opera or enjoy listening to singers like Mario Lanza are familiar with this altered state induced by the performers.



ELFs

Now, let's carry this awareness a little farther. There are also inaudible ELFs (extra-low frequency waves). These are electromagnetic in nature. One of the primary uses of ELFs is to communicate with our submarines. Dr. Andrija Puharich, a highly respected researcher, in an attempt to warn U.S. officials about Russian use of ELFs, set up an experiment. Volunteers were wired so their brain waves could be measured on an EEG. They were then sealed in a metal room that could not be penetrated by a normal signal.

Puharich then beamed ELF waves at the volunteers. ELFs go right through the earth and right through metal walls. Those inside couldn't know if the signal was or was not being sent. And Puharich watched the reactions on the technical equipment: Thirty percent of those inside the room were taken over by the ELF signal in six to ten seconds.

When I say taken over, I mean their behavior followed the changes anticipated at very precise frequencies. Waves below 6 cycles per second caused the subjects to become emotionally upset, and even disrupted bodily functions. At 8.2 cycles, they felt high -- as though they had been in masterful meditation, learned over a period of years. Eleven to 11.3 cycles induced waves of depressed agitation which could lead to riotous behavior.

The Neurophone

Dr. Patrick Flanagan is a personal friend. In the early 1960's, as a teenager, Pat was listed as one of the top scientists in the world by Life magazine. Among his many inventions was a device he called the Neurophone -- an electronic instrument that can successfully program suggestions directly through contact with the skin. When he attempted to patent the device, the government demanded that he prove it worked. When he did, the National Security Agency confiscated the neurophone. It took Pat two years of legal battle to get his invention back.

In using the device, you don't hear or see a thing; it is applied to the skin, which Pat claims is the source of special senses. The skin contains more sensors for heat, touch, pain, vibration and electrical fields than any other part of the human anatomy.

In one of his tests, Pat conducted two identical seminars for a military audience -- one seminar one night and one the next night, because the size of the room was not large enough to accommodate all the attendees at one time. When the first group proved to be very cool and unwilling to respond, Patrick spent the next day making a special tape to play at the second seminar. The tape instructed the audience to be extremely warm and responsive and for their hands to become tingly. The tape was played through the neurophone, which was connected to a wire he placed along the ceiling of the room. There were no speakers, so no sound could be heard, yet the message was successfully transmitted from that wire directly into the brains of the audience. They were warm and receptive, their hands tingled and they responded, according to programming, in other ways that Pat doesn't want publicly discussed.



The Medium For Takeover

The more we find out about how human beings work, the more we learn to control human beings. What scares me most is that the medium for takeover is already in place! The television set in your living room and bedroom may be doing a lot more than just entertaining you.

Before I continue, let me point out something else about an altered state of consciousness. When you go into an altered state, you transfer into right brain, which results in the internal release of brain opiates: enkephalins and Beta-endorphins, which are chemically almost identical to opium. In other words, it feels good and you want to experience more.

Tests by researcher Herbert Krugman showed that while viewers were watching TV, right-brain activity outnumbered left-brain activity by a ratio of two to one. Put more simply, the viewers were in an altered state more often than not. They were getting their Beta-endorphin fix.

To measure attention spans, psychophysiologist Thomas Mulholland of the Veterans Hospital in Bedford, Massachusetts, attached young viewers to an EEG machine that was wired to shut the TV set off whenever the children's brains produced a majority of Alpha waves. Although the children were told to concentrate, only a few could keep the set on for more than 30 seconds.

Most viewers are already hypnotized. To deepen the trance is easy. One simple way is to place a blank, black frame every 32 frames in the film that is being projected. This creates a 45-beat-per-minute pulsation perceived only by the subconscious mind -- the ideal pace to generate deep hypnosis.

The commercials or suggestions presented following this Alpha-inducing broadcast are much more likely to be accepted by the viewer. The high percentage of the viewing audience that naturally attains a somnambulistic-depth could very well accept the suggestions as commands -- as long as the commands did not ask the viewer to do something contrary to his morals, religion or self-preservation.

The medium for takeover is here. By the age of 16, children have spent 10,000 to 15,000 hours watching television -- more time than they spend in school. In the average home, the TV set is on for six hours and 44 minutes per day.

A research project by Jacob Jacoby, a Purdue University psychologist, found that of 2,700 people tested, 90 percent misunderstood even such simple viewing fare as commercials or a TV series they watched regularly. Only minutes after watching a show, the typical viewer missed 23 to 36 percent of the questions about what they had just seen. Maybe this is because they were going in and out of trance. When in a deep trance, you must be instructed to remember -- otherwise you forget consciously, while your subconscious mind remembers everything.



The Tip of the Iceberg

I have just touched the tip of the iceberg. When you start to combine subliminal messages behind the music, subliminal visuals projected on the screen, hypnotically produced visual effects, sustained musical beats at a trance-inducing pace, you are talking conversion -- brainwashing. Every hour that you spend watching TV you become more conditioned. In case you thought there was a law against any of these things, guess again. There isn't. There are a lot of powerful people out there who probably have plans for you?



Partial Bibliography:

Influence -- The Psychology of Persuasion by Robert B. Cialdini, Ph.D. (Quill 1984)

The Battle for the Mind by William Sargant (Perennial Library 1957)

Snapping by Flo Conway & Jim Siegelman (Delta Books 1978)

The True Believer by Eric Hoffer (Harper & Row 1951)

Mind Wars by Ron McRae (St. Martin's Press 1984)

How To Organize & Manage Your Own Religion Cult by Duke McCoy (Loompanics Unlimited 1980)

Behavior Modification by Richard Camellion (Paladin Press 1978)

Cults by Charles G. Waugh & Martin H. Greenberg (Beaufort 1983)

Holy Terror by Flo Conway and Jim Siegelman (Delta Books 1982)

All subliminal books by Bryan Key, Ph.D.

Hitler propaganda films produced before World War II

Newsweek magazine

What do you mean by Fundamentalists? Any Christian that believes in the Bible as God's word is a Fundamentalist - it's all about sticking to the Fundamentals in other words the basics, the core.

Paul


This entire post is from Dick Sutphen's article, so you'd have to ask him. I can only take a guess at what he means.

What do you mean by Fundamentalists? Any Christian that believes in the Bible as God's word is a Fundamentalist - it's all about sticking to the Fundamentals in other words the basics, the core.

Paul


I think the currently accepted definition of a Christian Fundamentalist is that of an extremist.

Jennifer

Incredible posts here Greg!

I remember taking marketing, and learning many little "tricks" that companies use to get us to buy their product. Everything from the color of labels they use, to product placement. Exactly why the sugar coated cereals are placed towards the middle going down towards the floor... So young eyes see them and beg their parents for them. The "healthy" cereals are placed in the middle to upper levels of the shelf so older, taller people see them. This is the very reason that Pepsi and Coca Cola fight for space in stores. Why they both demand "product loyalty" from chains of restaurants and super markets.

If you drink Coca Cola, chances are you drink Sprite or will be offered Sprite. If the restaurant you are in uses Pepsi products, you will be given 7-UP - not Sprite.... and on it goes.

I also remember working as a sales person at a big department store. The head of security told me, that they were using subliminal music to embed commands to not steal.

THEN my brother studied NLP and became a Master Practioner of NLP. I also learned a few things about it, as I was his favorite gineau (sp) pig tp practise on. I was going through some serious issues at the time. I was getting triggered a lot, having flash backs, etc of abuse from years earlier, when I was a child. I was living with my mom again, after many years of not having lived with her. My abuser was also spending a lot of time at our house. Between my mom saying things to me, that she used to say me when I was little... and seeing my abuser which brought up many conflicted feelings for me, I was getting triggered left and right!

My brother, the newly qualified NLP Master Practioner ( Like Tony Robbins) was helping me in some ways to help me with things I WANTED to deal with. But he had made the mistake of also telling me things, like how it is possible to erase someone's memory, or NULP them without their consent too. I was doing a session with my brother, when out of the blue, the commands I felt he were saying to me, were to get rid of my flashbacks and memories. I mentally resisted those commands. I wanted to DEAL with them before I got rid of them. I knew there was clues in them for me, and I wanted to sue my abuser. I knew those clues may not be 100% accurate, but it was MY past and it was MY choice. I was angry at him that he was trying to erase my memories without my permission! So I resisted.

I read all the above you posted with great interest. Bdraft and I have had some very in depth conversations about "Persuasion" and many other topics that are NLP related. Having been in the media, I KNOW without doubt, that politicians are coached by their own people and media people alike, on how to give a presentation. Use of body gestures, use of tonality in speech, How to look right into the teleprompter, etc, etc.. the list can go on ad nauseum.

I was already aware of how subliminal messages are given in advertising, such as a skull and bones in ice cubes of alcohol. Pictures that fly by faster than the eye can interpret them, but the brain still can... the strobe light effect. Lucky for me, I was epileptic as a child and strobe light type displays in commercials cause me to close my eyes or look away. I outgrew the epilepsy, but to this day I am still sensitive to strobe light type things, and still look away!

Product placement is in movies too. A can of coca Cola or budweiser beer is being show in the shot. The beer company is getting some promo in return for having paid for it. If you can't see clearly the lable of a beer or cola, then NO money has traded hands, and the producers are not willing to give any promo to the companies whose products they are. It is all so subtle, yet all so sneaky.

We are BOMBARDED every day with thousands of messages through advertising on radio, tv, magazines, internet... you name it. For every medium that exists there is some subliminal way of advertising for it. If a company uses ALL mediums to get their campaign across.. guess what? The higher the sales will be.... That is a given these days.

Selling snake oil can go back many, many years - long before the inventions of radio, TV, and internet. Back when there was only newspapers. Back when salesmen would ride the rails or horse to go from town to town. And it probably goes back even further than than that too...

I have worked for one of Canada's biggest Survey / Market Researching companies. I know the tactics they employ... it is mind boggling! The questions they ask get to the root of everything little thing we can perceive or believe about a product. They also ferret out info about US too. What age group, what level of education, how much money we make, our locations, what our ethnic background is. They use all this to come up with advertising campaigns aimed at certain groups. That is not exactly hidden knowledge though.

It is what they do with that information that most people don't know about. They collect and sell that information, list of names, etc. They get people to sign up for study groups to probe further. They have to be somewhat above board in all this. And most are... However, what most people don't realize is that we are allowing them to TRAIN us, into giving up our power to choose away to these big companies by "agreeing" to participate in a survey. They play on our need to feel significant. They VALUE our input. They give us prizes and incentives for answering their questions... We FEEL we are getting something back for our time and opinions, but we are loosing so much more in the long run. The more we take part in these activities, the more of our personal power we are giving away to these companies. The more we allow them in our heads, the more ammo they have to use against us. It is quite the trick, really.

So then a campaign gets made on how to advertise to depressed people. Go see your doctor and ask about THIS PURPLE PILL. They go through doctors, who get lots of incentive to hand out samples. Not all doctors are bad, nor are all doctors pill pushers, I know more doctors who are HESITANT to hand out Rx's than I do who are willing to prescribe Rx's.... It all boils down to "Buyer Beware"....

There are always going to be fanatics on both sides of the fence. Those doing the selling and promoting, and those strongly opposed to them. The balance lays in taking it all in, and deciding for ones self, which is right.

Great posts Greg! I hope you will continue to post more on these topics.. :)

This is very interesting stuff Grefolio, and I think most of the time it takes much less to accomplish it as most people will simply go along with what somebody says as long as that person has some trust of the masses.

Hmmm. you've definately peaked my intrest on the topic. I have heard a lot about this, and i don't think its all bad....but I really think you have to protect yourself mentally, and you did just that. I do think it could have its good points. I like Tony robbins and don't think he "abuses" his knowledge on the subject. Great thread. i'm intrested in what others think on the subject also.

I am sure Tony knows about these techniques. Seems like I recognize a few!

I'm sure MANY people know about and use these Techniques.

Even in Day-to-Day Conversation.

What do you mean by Fundamentalists? Any Christian that believes in the Bible as God's word is a Fundamentalist - it's all about sticking to the Fundamentals in other words the basics, the core.

Paul

If you believe in the Bible, you have been brainwashed.

Once you use the word 'faith', someone somewhere has brainwashed you and your mind is closed to facts and logic that do not support that brainwashing.

'True Believer' is a label you will see proudly coming from a brainwashed mind and nowhere else.

If you believe in the Bible, you have been brainwashed.

Once you use the word 'faith', someone somewhere has brainwashed you and your mind is closed to facts and logic that do not support that brainwashing.

'True Believer' is a label you will see proudly coming from a brainwashed mind and nowhere else.

I think that is a pretty harsh assumption to make Tachyon. Not everyone who believes the bible has merit, is brainwashed. I for example, believe in God, believe the bible was written by those who lived in Jesus's time... but I also believe that many different interpretations of the bible exist. I don't subscribe to thinking that there is only one interpretation of every scripture. For every printing of the bible, how are we to know that someone didn't throw in their own interpretation of it? We have no way of knowing to be sure, but we can have FAITH. In order to have faith, one must believe. What ever one believes in, is true for THEM. I am more of a spiritual person, than a religious one. That doesn't mean I think my religious friends are wrong for their views though. As it all does in life, it all boils down to balance. Balancing what we as individuals know and believe to be true for ourselves, based upon our own life experiences.

I do not believe that all followers of religious faith are brainwashed. Yes, there are SOME, like those of Jim Jones congregation, who took the koolaid and drank it. I think that differs greatly though, from the average person who goes to church.... That there in my opinion is the dividing line, between someone who has FAITH, and someone who blindly follows....

I think that is a pretty harsh assumption to make Tachyon. Not everyone who believes the bible has merit, is brainwashed. I for example, believe in God, believe the bible was written by those who lived in Jesus's time... but I also believe that many different interpretations of the bible exist. I don't subscribe to thinking that there is only one interpretation of every scripture. For every printing of the bible, how are we to know that someone didn't throw in their own interpretation of it? We have no way of knowing to be sure, but we can have FAITH. In order to have faith, one must believe. What ever one believes in, is true for THEM. I am more of a spiritual person, than a religious one. That doesn't mean I think my religious friends are wrong for their views though. As it all does in life, it all boils down to balance. Balancing what we as individuals know and believe to be true for ourselves, based upon our own life experiences.

I do not believe that all followers of religious faith are brainwashed. Yes, there are SOME, like those of Jim Jones congregation, who took the koolaid and drank it. I think that differs greatly though, from the average person who goes to church.... That there in my opinion is the dividing line, between someone who has FAITH, and someone who blindly follows....

If you truly understood the history of the Bible and made those statements I would say you have a point. However you are just repeating what others have told you.

Did you know NONE of the Bible was written while Jesus was supposedly alive. Mark's gospel was written in 70 AD at the earliest (though most say 170AD) and he does not even say he met Jesus. Not only that what he does say shows he didn't even know the geography of the area. (He had never even been in the area!)
There isn't even any evidence Jesus existed. If you believe in him, it is not because of evidence or logic, it is because you have been programmed to believe without question. That is why you never investigated any deeper, because all brainwashing depends you do not question your 'beliefs' and where they really came from.

So your 'faith' is coming from somewhere. You have accepted information as truth because?... You believe because of who you listened to, and that is because of where you were born. Different parents, different country you would 'believe' something else.

Base it on facts and logic and you will be the same everywhere you would grow up.

Sorry but your life experiences have included brainwashing.
(as have mine - but once you are aware you can get control back)

If you believe in the Bible, you have been brainwashed.

Once you use the word 'faith', someone somewhere has brainwashed you and your mind is closed to facts and logic that do not support that brainwashing.

'True Believer' is a label you will see proudly coming from a brainwashed mind and nowhere else.While that might be true in some cases, the Scientific Community wants people to Believe what THEY say is "THE truth." Depending on which specific or particular Field of Interest, Facts and Logic change pretty radically every few years.

does that mean those who are of the scientific bent have to be "brain-rinsed" to accept the "new data available"? or are they just supposed to have faith and believe the "new data" is actually THE correct data? or that the interpretation is not somehow faulty?

Did you know NONE of the Bible was written while Jesus was supposedly alive.

No way.... :yikes: are you kidding? :eek:

the whole bible? like the old testament too...


;)

No way.... :yikes: are you kidding? :eek:

the whole bible? like the old testament too...


;)It's part of the "Vertical Time" theory. Time is a construct of the limited mind, and Everything happens at once.

While that might be true in some cases, the Scientific Community wants people to Believe what THEY say is "THE truth." Depending on which specific or particular Field of Interest, Facts and Logic change pretty radically every few years.

does that mean those who are of the scientific bent have to be "brain-rinsed" to accept the "new data available"?

If you accept data on 'faith' - yup.

If the system works they will accept it only through independent verification and will always be open to change should new evidence show it is needed.
Einstein work was because Newtons theory didn't explain a small wobble in Mercury's orbit. That meant something was missing.

Science is very aware that accepting fact on faith will not make a bridge stay up!

Science is actually not a thing but a method. A method developed specifically to get around this 'faith' problem. To try and understand based on the evidence, not on who was presenting the evidence.

As long as science accepts change and is constantly questioning its results it will hold the high ground in the 'truth', though ironically it knows that todays truth will not be tomorrows. That is why we keep on trying to learn more.

That seems far less problematic than thinking the truth was found 2000 years ago and therefore why bother looking anymore. That is why religion will never offer more than it does when it was first accepted on 'faith' as being the truth. The earth would still be the center of the universe if it wasn't for science. The Bible will never change to the known facts - never.

It's part of the "Vertical Time" theory. Time is a construct of the limited mind, and Everything happens at once.

You don't really "believe" that do you? :nono:

Way I heared it "believin' " is bad juju

When I hear something interesting, I'll find ways to test them mySelf if I am so inclined.

No way.... :yikes: are you kidding? :eek:

the whole bible? like the old testament too...


;)

Oops - should have said NEW testament.

Now the old testament, thats an even more interesting subject!

Now class lets all spell - delusion.

:crosseye:

If you accept data on 'faith' - yup.

If the system works they will accept it only through independent verification and will always be open to change should new evidence show it is needed.
Einstein work was because Newtons theory didn't explain a small wobble in Mercury's orbit. That meant something was missing.

Science is very aware that accepting fact on faith will not make a bridge stay up!

Science is actually not a thing but a method. A method developed specifically to get around this 'faith' problem. To try and understand based on the evidence, not on who was presenting the evidence.

As long as science accepts change and is constantly questioning its results it will hold the high ground in the 'truth', though ironically it knows that todays truth will not be tomorrows. That is why we keep on trying to learn more.

That seems far less problematic than thinking the truth was found 2000 years ago and therefore why bother looking anymore. That is why religion will never offer more than it does when it was first accepted on 'faith' as being the truth. The earth would still be the center of the universe if it wasn't for science. The Bible will never change to the known facts - never.So is your beef with Religion, or with the less-than-perfect-subject-to-change 'splainations offered by Science? or is it with everyone who's mind isn't as open as Yours?

Oops - should have said NEW testament.

Now the old testament, thats an even more interesting subject!

Now class lets all spell - delusion.

:crosseye:

I am quite comfortable in my d-e-l-u-s-i-o-n-s fair teacher but thank you for the science lesson

Are you open to the possibility that some "truths" were found more than 2000 years ago and remain unchanged?

There isn't even any evidence Jesus existed.

That just shows how little you know. Are you going to dismiss the secular sources for the historical evidence for Jesus now?

Contemporary Secular Sources include the following:

Flavius Josephus

Thallus

Phlegon

Pliny the Younger

Cornelius Tacitus

Suetonius

Mara Bar-Serapion



Paul

If you truly understood the history of the Bible and made those statements I would say you have a point. However you are just repeating what others have told you. I couldn't quote you the bible if I tried!

Did you know NONE of the Bible was written while Jesus was supposedly alive. Mark's gospel was written in 70 AD at the earliest (though most say 170AD) and he does not even say he met Jesus. Not only that what he does say shows he didn't even know the geography of the area. (He had never even been in the area!) Oh well, doesn't affect me or my beliefs, I am spiritual!!

There isn't even any evidence Jesus existed. If you believe in him, it is not because of evidence or logic, it is because you have been programmed to believe without question. That is why you never investigated any deeper, because all brainwashing depends you do not question your 'beliefs' and where they really came from. You can't say this, as you don't know this to be true about ME. I HAVE investigated deeper thank you... ;)

So your 'faith' is coming from somewhere. You have accepted information as truth because?... You believe because of who you listened to, and that is because of where you were born. Different parents, different country you would 'believe' something else. The basis of my "Faith" actually stems from a 12 step program, which is very liberal... thanks for asking! ;)

Base it on facts and logic and you will be the same everywhere you would grow up. Sorry but your life experiences have included brainwashing.
(as have mine - but once you are aware you can get control back)

YOU seem to think I have been brainwashed... no. I rejected the heavy handed baptist view when I was 8. I have tried to go back to church, to a Baptist church even. I was quite surprised how "modern" they are now, no more talk about fire and brim stone anymore. They realized how many people they turned off with that talk. But I still prefer my "spirituality" as compared to organized religion.

You don't know me very well... and your post only proves that. For your perusal, is my beliefs:

I went to a Baptist sunday school from ages 4 - 8. I accepted Christ into my life at age 9 in a pentecostal church. At 17 I was sure I should convert to catholicism, but my catholic friends talked me out of it! LOL

By age 22 I was into reading "spiritual" aka "New age" books, and came to believe in reincarnation, karma, started seeing my faith as something personal. I came to shed what organized religion taught me. Not because I don't believe that a man named Jesus once walked the earth, I do! Not because I think religion is bad, I don't! But because I came to see how "organized religion" differs from what I believe.

I believe at one time, that Astonomy, astrology, spirituality, etc., were all part of religion. That it was organized religion that separated all those things. That man made rules were made, and passed off as the laws of God. That for centuries those man made rules were blindly followed. I believe the 10 commandments were handed down. All the rest of the bible? I am not sure of. I do believe there is but one God... but that God shows Himself / Herself to all the different religions in ways they can each interpret. To some he is "Allah", to others, Buddha, to others "The Great Spirit", and so on. To me, there are too many coincidences from ALL faiths, that sound similar. Yet they all have polarized views. Each thinks their way is the "correct" way.

I don't believe there is only one way or one "correct" way. I believe all religions have merit. I believe all people like me who DO NOT go to church, can still believe in God. I believe in being "spiritual" as opposed to religious. I believe in remaining open to all faiths and beliefs. I don't discredit or disbelieve any faith. However I do not subscribe to any one faith.... My views are a mixture of many religious faiths and mostly spirituality.

I can assure you, I have not been brainwashed by any religion. I shunned my baptist sunday school teachings, as it was all hell fire and brimstone. I believe that God, as I chose to believe in him - is a kind, caring, loving, forgiving God. Not some punishing over see'r out to condemn his "subjects".

What made me turn around, was my dad was anti-religious in all ways! He didn't believe in God at all. Yet, as he was dying - he had the classic "death experience". He saw my grandpa waiting to take him through the tunnel. Which I had been taught was only for "true believers". Well, that blew that theory all to hell in my eyes. If my dad - a horrid man who did so much harm to others... could have his dad come back for him and take him to be back with God... it cemented in my mind the possibility of reincarnation. Of a loving God who takes back ALL his creations into heaven. That is about as religious as I get. All my views are based on MY personal experiences. I have questioned my religious beliefs since the age of 8. So for you to call me brainwashed, I think is extremely funny! I am far from being religious. I AM spiritual though. But if you are a science, fact only, kind of person - then you are bound to see both religious and spiritual people all the same....

That's a shame... because you have a seemingly limited viewpoint, if you can only believe in what you can test. How do you know what Love is, if you are not able to feel it every time? Does it still exist when you are not there? Of course it does. But being so fact based, can stop you from seeing and exploring points of view, that have no scientific explanation....

For example, reincarnation. Or ESP, or psychic phenomena... Just because I can't see it, or understand it completely - doesn't mean those things aren't real or don't exist. In fact, I have had enough encounters with those things, that I BELIEVE they do exist. Can I prove it? No... but to me proving it serves no purpose. I know how it makes me feel. I know I have seen what I believe is proof enough to me personally. So no, it doesn't bother me that I can't "prove" those things happened to you as well. I was there, I saw them. For me, that is enough. :) That is what I call Faith... I am a "True Believer" of my own theories and thoughts and beliefs - not what someone else told me to believe in. :D

I am a "True Believer" of my own theories and thoughts and beliefs - not what someone else told me to believe in. :D

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

I am a "True Believer" of my own theories and thoughts and beliefs - not what someone else told me to believe in. :D

As pious as Tachyon likes to sound, Tachyon has been "taught" and "told" what to believe as much as anyone else. He/She is as much "brain-washed" if people want to use that term as any so-called religious person. Science is His/Her religion. Sadly there are quite a few scientists who won't admit to believing in God even though they do, for fear of what their colleagues and peers will say, or they will shy away from the subject.

Paul

Ah yes, the argument that I have a limited view point because I dare to question what is being told me.

Yes , I too have had teachers and have made decisions based on limited information.

The difference is that I do not have 'faith' I know it all or that a single book has all the PERFECT answers. I do know that all of what I believe I was convinced of someway. But the big difference is, that I am fully willing to drop it all if something comes along that makes even more sense. I have done it before and I'll do it again.

There was a time when I thought Jesus probably existed. However after doing extensive research from many many sources I no longer believe he ever existed and there are many reasons why this conclusion makes sense.

I have also seen and have heard from those caught up in the brainwashing techniques described here. It is very interesting to hear someone who has managed to remove themselves from that influence.

My conclusion is still that the ones that claim knowledge based on faith are at that point because they have let someone else do the thinking for them.
The key point is that they strongly defend, rather than explore their current position.

If their position was to further their knowledge the alternate views would be exciting and even though not excepted they would add depth to their own experience.

But a closed mind is terrified of anything that tries to change that knowledge which is held as the ultimate truth. That is why the faithful don't want any other input. Why they will read the same thing over and over, and why they get so upset when someone dares to question them.

Yes, to you I am limited, and I am proud I don't know what I will know a year from now.

The faithful already know everything they ever will.

But a closed mind is terrified of anything that tries to change that knowledge which is held as the ultimate truth. That is why the faithful don't want any other input. Why they will read the same thing over and over, and why they get so upset when someone dares to question them.

I noticed that about you... it's OK though there are many free thinking people here at the vibe that can help you with this...

Stay awesome dude/dudette (Are you a boy or girl)

Ah yes, the argument that I have a limited view point because I dare to question what is being told me

....snip...

The faithful already know everything they ever will.

So, in conclusion what you are saying is, we should not take any advice from you, or listen to you, becasue we should "dare to question what is being told" from you. Added to that, should we take it on faith that you are right, then we should question that faith, since faith is not fact, and if anything is closed minded, and not scientific. Futher more, we should not listen to you simply because you choose not to back up what you say, therefore making yourself no different to anyone else we may listen to, who says a lot to influence but not to back up scientifically. Which is what we do her, in your opinion.

You seem hard core on science, so, based on what you have said, can you answer this for me: Can you explain love? What is it, how does it happen, who does it happen to, and why? What tools does a scientist use to measure love and can it be reproduced? If love is too difficult, explain happiness then.

Mark

So, in conclusion what you are saying is, we should not take any advice from you, or listen to you, becasue we should "dare to question what is being told" from you. Added to that, should we take it on faith that you are right, then we should question that faith, since faith is not fact, and if anything is closed minded, and not scientific. Futher more, we should not listen to you simply because you choose not to back up what you say, therefore making yourself no different to anyone else we may listen to, who says a lot to influence but not to back up scientifically. Which is what we do her, in your opinion.

You seem hard core on science, so, based on what you have said, can you answer this for me: Can you explain love? What is it, how does it happen, who does it happen to, and why? What tools does a scientist use to measure love and can it be reproduced? If love is too difficult, explain happiness then.

Mark

Well actually you should not take advice from me and you should not have any faith in what I say. However if you find yourself feeling defensive you should ask yourself why.

If you find yourself not even wanting to consider another way of looking at something then you should ask yourself why.

I really don't care what you answer but I am fascinated by response's when people are questioned about something they belief through faith.

Can I explain love etc..? You seem to imply you can, and I would love (forgive the pun) to hear your explaination.

I know what I experience as love and how I can make others experience it. I have no idea if others see it the same. Do we all see 'red' as the same color?

The Dalia Lama sees happiness as the meaning of life and I tend to agree.
I cannot explain it as again it is a relative experience. I am happiest when I feel their are vast expanses of knowledge and wisdom to still discover. Every time I find new insite I am truly happy.

I knew my Jesus never existed statement would evoke a debate. That was the point. If there are any that truly would look at sources I suggest in an attempt to see if they could learn something new then I will be happy to provide them. It is extremely fascinating world that you will enter. The politics of religion, ancient gods, the lost gospels, the Roman empire and how one vision of Christianity became dominate over many versions.

Did you know that pagan religions had a Jesus figure 2000 years before Christ. (carved in stone) They shared the same birthday, and day of death, the same name, they looked the same and even had a virgin mother Mary. Even riding into town on a donkey! Did you know the earliest depiction of a man on a cross was Dyonisis, 300 years before the first time Jesus was depicted on a cross. Did you know the gospel of Peter states Jesus did not suffer on the cross and that he was a god and not a man at all. Peter was head of the Gnostics, the Christianity crushed by Constantine that treated the story of Jesus as an allegory not fact. The Gnostics where the FIRST version of Christianity.

Did you know the Bible follows the Zodiac? That the name Jesus was created to symbolize the Pagan number 888.

Did you that the artifacts worshiped were picked out by Constantine's wife in 330 AD? Before then there was no wood from the cross, there was no location of his death etc..

If you want to go down this road I can help but you will have to read and read....

:)

I knew my Jesus never existed statement would evoke a debate. That was the point. If there are any that truly would look at sources I suggest in an attempt to see if they could learn something new then I will be happy to provide them. It is extremely fascinating world that you will enter. The politics of religion, ancient gods, the lost gospels, the Roman empire and how one vision of Christianity became dominate over many versions.

Did you know that pagan religions had a Jesus figure 2000 years before Christ. (carved in stone) They shared the same birthday, and day of death, the same name, they looked the same and even had a virgin mother Mary. Even riding into town on a donkey! Did you know the earliest depiction of a man on a cross was Dyonisis, 300 years before the first time Jesus was depicted on a cross. Did you know the gospel of Peter states Jesus did not suffer on the cross and that he was a god and not a man at all. Peter was head of the Gnostics, the Christianity crushed by Constantine that treated the story of Jesus as an allegory not fact. The Gnostics where the FIRST version of Christianity.

Did you know the Bible follows the Zodiac? That the name Jesus was created to symbolize the Pagan number 888.

Did you that the artifacts worshiped were picked out by Constantine's wife in 330 AD? Before then there was no wood from the cross, there was no location of his death etc.. Yes, I am aware of these "facts" and more.
History is repleat with amazing stories of lots of stuff like this. If you want to go down this road I can help but you will have to read and read....
I already have. and Do.

But it DOES take more than just reading.

But it DOES take more than just reading.


I'm sorry but I think you enjoy being 'fuzzy'. :)

Please expand on this. I am very interested in any more info, especially if it is about refuting these facts.

I assume your quotes around 'facts' implies this is your angle.

If you know about these items from these various sources and are still more convinced by a literal interpretation of the Bible as it was finally decided upon, I want to hear all about it!

I'm not sure why I got such a big response about Jesus..... :hmm:

I wasn't implying anyhting about love, I was asking a question about science.

Mark

I'm sorry but I think you enjoy being 'fuzzy'. :) and I think you enjoy being black and white, as long as you get to pick the B&W and you get to color in your shades of gray as well.

furry? or yeah ..... fuzzy. If you want to see or cast it that way, that's cool. thats Your Choice. So far, I've seen nothing you've said that hasn't been rehashed MANY times in many different places, especially on this site and others, so I see no reason to get into anything of a deeper nature with you. Please expand on this. I am very interested in any more info, especially if it is about refuting these facts.

I assume your quotes around 'facts' implies this is your angle.

If you know about these items from these various sources and are still more convinced by a literal interpretation of the Bible as it was finally decided upon, I want to hear all about it! I'm not refuting anything, so your assumption about implication is not correct. But you are probably used to fighting about things and just expect that.

I said "facts" as I did because there are many other versions of the facts you point to; names, dates, reasons, zodiac, numerology, etc etc etc. I really don't care what you answer but I am fascinated by response's when people are questioned about something they belief through faith. I'm fascinated by responses that are from a belief generated by ones book knowledge only.


one question for you ..... are your arguments from an esoteric or exoteric level?

However if you find yourself feeling defensive you should ask yourself why.


If you find yourself feeling that you need to denegrate and "attack" someone for having faith in something you are so dismissive of, you should ask yourself why.


I knew my Jesus never existed statement would evoke a debate. That was the point. If there are any that truly would look at sources I suggest in an attempt to see if they could learn something new then I will be happy to provide them. It is extremely fascinating world that you will enter. The politics of religion, ancient gods, the lost gospels, the Roman empire and how one vision of Christianity became dominate over many versions.


Your position is ridiculous because you rubbish those who believe in the Bible because they do so on faith and yet you put your faith in other documents for which you have no better (and I suspect less) proof of their history and authenticity. I find it somewhat amusing how many of these so-called "lost" gospels have suddenly appeared in the last few years or are finding their way into popular mainstream compared with the historical documents of the canon that go back to the early 100's AD.

To say that the gospel of Mark for example was written in 70AD. So what? Does it claim any different? This was a time of oral history and oral traditions. I've heard it said, not sure of the source, that there is more documented evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is Alexander the Great.

You can believe what you want, but let's not kid ourselves that you are not relying on faith.

Paul

I'm fascinated by responses that are from a belief generated by ones book knowledge only.

So am I! Just imagine getting it from ONE book!

Your position is ridiculous because you rubbish those who believe in the Bible because they do so on faith and yet you put your faith in other documents for which you have no better (and I suspect less) proof of their history and authenticity. I find it somewhat amusing how many of these so-called "lost" gospels have suddenly appeared in the last few years or are finding their way into popular mainstream compared with the historical documents of the canon that go back to the early 100's AD.

The difference between you and me is that I have read the Bible AND many other books in that area of knowledge. I guarantee I know the Bible better than you.

I would never be so silly as to discuss or ridicule something I never read. That would be ... well .. signs of brainwashing.

We can discuss the Bible and only the Bible if you wish.

I don't 'rubbish' those with faith - I simply pointed out what you have confirmed that those with faith resist learning and that they already know everything they ever will know because of that.

If that bothers you then READ other books, then berate them - but at least pretend you really want to learn.

Notice no one has asked for any sources so they could read and learn something on their own.

Hmmmm....

So am I! Just imagine getting it from ONE book!
I was actually talking about your book only learnin'. Whether you've read one or 101 books, they are still someone elses opinions. So Your faith is totally dependent on your relying on faith their writings are true and non-contradictory of the other truths you cite.

The difference between you and me is that I have read the Bible AND many other books in that area of knowledge. I guarantee I know the Bible better than you.....

Thats a pretty big assumption from someone that operates on "facts" only

Is there a thread here that has indicated Paul's reading list from his whole life?

How can you guarantee that?

one question for you ..... are your arguments from an esoteric or exoteric level?

Funny you ask that as that is exactly what happened to Christianity. They had to choose.

There are no absolutes, so your interpretation of the external world defines who you really are.

Knowledge of the external world is key to getting closer to understand all sides of all things.

Allegories and mythologies are keys to understanding how our mind deals with the concepts that direct knowledge hasn't answer, such as life, death and the meaning of it all.
-----------------------
Both I guess.

Hope that answer the question.

Thats a pretty big assumption from someone that operates on "facts" only

Is there a thread here that has indicated Paul's reading list from his whole life?

How can you guarantee that?

Like all guarantees they are based on probability.

My guess is that I have more info at my fingertips than he does at his.

I have met very few who have more. I would love to find someone who had more!!

So I win either way. ;)

but MY answers are fuzzy. :rolleyes:

Thats a pretty big assumption from someone that operates on "facts" only

Is there a thread here that has indicated Paul's reading list from his whole life?

How can you guarantee that?

I was going to reply Tim, since I came to Christianity in my 30's. But then I remembered my promise to myself.... I am not getting sucked into these pointless discussions here or on any other sites any more.

Since I believe that it's the Holy Spirit that opens the eyes, heart and mind and aids in understanding the scripture anyway, I don't believe that Tachyon and I could ever interpret the scripture in the same way. I have several books in my library discussing so called discrepancies in the Biblical accounts, hard to understand teachings etc etc.

I seriously doubt Tachyon has approached his studies of the Bible with an open mind... but that is for him to know and not me to think on or even concern myself over.

As I said, this comes down to faith and beliefs. I ain't gonna change his mind and he ain't gonna change mine, so this is pretty pointless from my pov. I'll leave him to continue to make his broad sweeping assertions and kidding himself that he is as open minded as he claims he is.

Paul

I was actually talking about your book only learnin'. Whether you've read one or 101 books, they are still someone elses opinions. So Your faith is totally dependent on your relying on faith their writings are true and non-contradictory of the other truths you cite.



I very rarely accept only one source. This particular 'journey' of mine about this topic was about finding multiple sources from as many indirect methods as possible.

My faith is in that if many paths lead to the same conclusion, that conclusion is more likely to be correct than one that has only one path leading to it.

The one path could be correct but it is highly suspect. That is what started me looking in the first place.

If you know there are more than one path, what is your real or imagined point of attacking someones path?






My effort should never be to undermine another's faith

but to make him a better follower of his own faith.



Mahatma Gandhi

I ain't gonna change his mind and he ain't gonna change mine, so this is pretty pointless from my pov. I'll leave him to continue to make his broad sweeping assertions and kidding himself that he is as open minded as he claims he is.

Paul

I never intended to change your mind. As a matter of fact my argument and the point of this thread is to demonstrate that is impossible.

I don't believe I said I was open minded. I said faith closes your mind.

I do probably feel I can adapt much faster than you to new knowledge, but I am not sure that is necessarily being more open minded.

More tolerant of new knowledge perhaps.

If you know there are more than one path, what is your real or imagined point of attacking someones path?


Have I attacked your path? I simply stated I have come to conclusion X. I never said your 'path' was bad.

I then attempted to test the original premise of this thread (brainwashing and Christians).

Are the results proving the premise? Hopefully lurkers will draw their own conclusions/

I do probably feel I can adapt much faster than you to new knowledge, but I am not sure that is necessarily being more open minded.

More tolerant of new knowledge perhaps.

More unverifiable statements which basically are just assertions on your part. You don't know me, or much about me at all, and yet you continue to make these kinds of comparisons. For what purpose I am not sure. If it makes you "feel" better, then keep going... personally I find it quite ridiculous, but maybe your ego or sense of self-concept needs it.

Paul

Have I attacked your path? I simply stated I have come to conclusion X. I never said your 'path' was bad.

I then attempted to test the original premise of this thread (brainwashing and Christians).

Are the results proving the premise? Hopefully lurkers will draw their own conclusions/
The biggest point you've made so far is that you like to argue on your own terms only.

I never intended to change your mind. As a matter of fact my argument and the point of this thread is to demonstrate that is impossible.

I don't believe I said I was open minded. I said faith closes your mind.

I do probably feel I can adapt much faster than you to new knowledge, but I am not sure that is necessarily being more open minded.

More tolerant of new knowledge perhaps.


OK you are much wiser than all oh gand and glorious one. When do we don the purple track suits and get to sample the koolaid in your great name.

Not sure yet but I may actually have found the first ever reason to actually use the ignore button - you may just be pompous enough to think it is because you have won some sort of victory. In reality if I do it is because I just don't have time for arrogance on a "Discussion" board

We can discuss the Bible and only the Bible if you wish.

I'm getting the feeling that that wouldn't be a good idea. :hopeless:

Have I attacked your path? I simply stated I have come to conclusion X. I never said your 'path' was bad.

I then attempted to test the original premise of this thread (brainwashing and Christians).

Are the results proving the premise? Hopefully lurkers will draw their own conclusions/

I don't see how you are "proving" any premiss. One can equally argue that you are "brainwashed" by fraudalent arguments and information that don't stand up to scrutiny. To claim that Jesus did not even exist - are there not many secular archaelogists and historians that would dismiss this assertion?

I think you have a belief and you are filtering the information that you take in to assert and support that belief, while disregarding other information that does not support it. You're faith is driven by these beliefs or maybe its your beliefs that are driven by your faith in these documents.... none of which you have cited as yet.

So in terms of "proving" your hypothesis... to those who possibly support your perspective, they will find agreement in what you say, and those that don't... well I will let them make up their own minds. But I haven't seen you say anything yet to support your view.

Paul

More unverifiable statements which basically are just assertions on your part. You don't know me, or much about me at all, and yet you continue to make these kinds of comparisons. For what purpose I am not sure. If it makes you "feel" better, then keep going... personally I find it quite ridiculous, but maybe your ego or sense of self-concept needs it.

Paul
I believe it was you who said you felt talking about this was wasting time.

Seems to be pretty clear who you are.

Why are you reading something you find ridiculous?

But I haven't seen you say anything yet to support your view.

Paul

Since I am not a Christian what I say doesn't matter in context of this thread.

What YOU say supports or doesn't support, the premise of this thread.

Since I am not a Christian what I say doesn't matter in context of this thread.

Of course it does. The premiss of this thread was not specifc to Christians. My assertion is that you are brainwashed. So far you've said nothing to dissuade me from my view.

Paul

Of course it does. The premiss of this thread was not specifc to Christians. My assertion is that you are brainwashed. So far you've said nothing to dissuade me from my view.

Paul

OK I'm brainwashed.

But I can't say that since one of the trade marks is that a brainwashed person never says he is. Doh!

So why don't you admit you are brainwashed?

;)

Somebody please take this kid's shovel away, the hole is deep and the Chinese are getting nervous. :biglaugh:

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS - JUST SAY NO TO DRAMA

Somebody please take this kid's shovel away, the hole is deep and the Chinese are getting nervous. :biglaugh:

DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS - JUST SAY NO TO DRAMA

Thats a pretty good one! :)

Glad to see you were reading the thread!

Its too bad you didn't have any input as I assume you probably have very strong opinions about it and you appear to be a very clever guy.

So do you think some/any/all/ Christians have been brainwashed?

Is it possible? How would we/they know?
Can a person brainwash themselves by reading books or does it require an outside person/organization to do it?

Is brainwashing a bad thing? Why?

I am learning Chinese though, just in case!

I am learning Chinese though, just in case!
Thats a good thing, because you are making pretty unconvincing points to anybody now, especially when you agree with something then twist it another direction.

Quite Masera-like.

Thats a pretty good one! :)

Glad to see you were reading the thread!

Its too bad you didn't have any input as I assume you probably have very strong opinions about it and you appear to be a very clever guy.

So do you think some/any/all/ Christians have been brainwashed?

Is it possible? How would we/they know?
Can a person brainwash themselves by reading books or does it require an outside person/organization to do it?

Is brainwashing a bad thing? Why?

I am learning Chinese though, just in case!There was nothing to add to the excellent participation by folks honestly trying to dialogue with you Tachyon, hence I did not provide input.

Your assumptions are correct, I have opinions that are stronger than the militaries of most 2nd world countries, and I am exceedingly clever, thank you.

Since I can only vouch for the Christians I know, I can only say none of the Christians I know have been brainwashed.

Brainwashing cannot be practiced on ones' self IMO.

Brainwashing in the vernacular sense, which is malicious in nature is bad, mmmkay?

FWIW, I believe it takes far more blind faith to posit the beliefs you have espoused here, than for me to live consistently as a scientifically minded practicing Catholic.

John

...So do you think some/any/all/ Christians have been brainwashed?... I take it this is a question to everyone and not just to KG?

I think you are absolutely right. Christians *have* been brainwashed.

So have Muslems and Bhuddists and Hundus, and members of all religions.

So have members of all societies.

So have we all, including everyone who has posted to this thread, including Tachyon.

In fact, unless we obtain all our knowledge from direct experience - no reading of books, no listening to experts, no listening to friends or any person at all, no watching movies, no seconhand information from any source. Only direct experience.

Unless that happens - which is impossible in this day and age - everyone on this planet is brainwashed.

So, what's new? What's the problem?

Are we arguing about some are more brainwashed than others? Well, that won't go to the top of the charts for intelligent debate!