Im going to toy with one of the big "three" (religion, politics, and unions)

There is a Wal Mart going up a few towns over from here. There are two giant, inflatable rats on display in front of the jobsite along with a guy holding a sign. They are of course voicing their displeasure with WalMart's use of non-union labor to build the store, and perhaps their employment of non-union store associates.

Its not my intention to start an all out war here, but Im interested in gauging my thoughts on the topic against others in the forum.

Heres my take:

Although the right to free expression is one of the cornerstones of our society, I wonder what purpose such a display serves in this instance. Doing it "just because you can", in my mind, isnt always a compelling enough reason. Seems to me that the place is going to get built no matter what.

I almost want to ask the guy with the sign "Wouldnt you and yours be better served by going to work, rather than standing here all day?"

I know that some of you will say 'Well, with that attitude, Scott, why should anyone bother with anything, since you dont think any of it makes a difference."

I just think, in this instance that 1) the place will still get built, and people will still show up to buy stuff and 2) Im not convinced that the construction workers and store associates would be better served simply by organizing, since Im of the opinion that the reasons that unions were first conceived dont necessarily apply in this new world of ours.

it is a justification for the dues that the Labor Unions take from the workers.

Without some demonstration the unions will begin to show how powerless and ineffective they have become. So instead they use these token symbols to try and ensure their membership that they are doing something rather than simply taking their money.What he said and twice and Tuesdays. :lildevil:

The labour unions organized at a Walmart in Canada and MallWart just up and closed their brand new store rather than meet with union reps, but not of course before ruining the local economy.

That kind of behavior and corporate "**** you" attitude might be why he chose rats.

That being said, I'm not a big fan of unions, like you say, in this day and age they seem archaic and moot. But they did pay most of my dad's medical bills even though he only worked part-time, didn't have Medicare yet and was in the hospital for two weeks. Not to mention the "brothers" donated sick time to him so he wouldn't lose his job.

So pluses and minuses. Like everything in life.

North Carolina is strangely devoid of much union-age.

Jennifer

Coming from a family of union members, I am probably a bit bias. Growing up I was told never to cross a picket line....I remember going to the grocery store with my mom when I was a teen. There was a picket line and my mom said "ooops can't go there. can't cross the line." I remember asking her if she knew "why" they were protesting and she said "doesn't matter. you cannot cross the line." I got into a debate with her....I told her that I thought it was too prejudice to make that decision w/out any thought as to if we actually agree with the reason of protest. Didn't matter "you just can't do it."

As I got older I noticed that it was my natural instinct not to go into a store when there was a union protest. Honestly, there was always another store around so I never really needed to struggle with the should I or shouldn't I?

Over the past 10 years, I've had many exposures to unions via my job. And I started to educate myself a little more about the history of the unions and all the rules and etiquette. And, I've debated my union family members and friends over many topics...because I am in the employee benefits industry I see first hand how good these union members have it....when was the last time you had a $5 copay for a name brand med? Or when was the last time you paid only a $2 copay to see a specialist? and when was the last time your employer paid 90% of your family health care coverage? So I think, hey, more power to them if they can negotiate these types of benefits. UNTIL I attend an arbitration or a union benefits meeting....and I have to sit there and hear these members complain that their Lipitor is now costing them $8 instead of $5 - and, how could anyone in their right mind expect them to pay a whopping $10 to see their cardiologist? And this is where I come in....I get to educate them on what the "normal" trends are in the industry and somehow make a point that they still are spoiled with an $8 name brand copay.

But there are a lot of great things about a union. They are fighters. They are loyal. It's a big family and they all protect one another. Do I think their practices are right for the world we live in today? probably not. I mean, if you are a company, and could pay a laborer $10/hour vs. a union laborer $30/hour, and both individuals had the same training and experience, I could see why it would piss off someone that they had to pay the union that add'l $20 just so they could be politically correct.

but they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. and those big inflated rats always makes me chuckle. and the guys on the picket lines, generally, are guys who are waiting in line to be placed in a job. So unless the union is 100% outsourced, which is never the case, I would imagine the guys you see with the signs weren't taken off any major job that day.

I am in and out of union plants all the time so I get to see what the $30.00+ per hour buys the company that pays it and the answer is - not much

Sleep on the job in a union plant - union keeps you from getting fired
Drug use on the job - union keeps you from getting fired
Insuburdination - union keeps you from getting fired

In my mind unions are the largest promoters of mediocrity and "something for nothing" in america

In my mind unions are the largest promoters of mediocrity and "something for nothing" in america

Stop, you are turning me on. ;)

Jennifer

Coming from a family of union members, I am probably a bit bias. Growing up I was told never to cross a picket line....I remember going to the grocery store with my mom when I was a teen. There was a picket line and my mom said "ooops can't go there. can't cross the line." I remember asking her if she knew "why" they were protesting and she said "doesn't matter. you cannot cross the line." I got into a debate with her....I told her that I thought it was too prejudice to make that decision w/out any thought as to if we actually agree with the reason of protest. Didn't matter "you just can't do it."

As I got older I noticed that it was my natural instinct not to go into a store when there was a union protest. Honestly, there was always another store around so I never really needed to struggle with the should I or shouldn't I?

Over the past 10 years, I've had many exposures to unions via my job. And I started to educate myself a little more about the history of the unions and all the rules and etiquette. And, I've debated my union family members and friends over many topics...because I am in the employee benefits industry I see first hand how good these union members have it....when was the last time you had a $5 copay for a name brand med? Or when was the last time you paid only a $2 copay to see a specialist? and when was the last time your employer paid 90% of your family health care coverage? So I think, hey, more power to them if they can negotiate these types of benefits. UNTIL I attend an arbitration or a union benefits meeting....and I have to sit there and hear these members complain that their Lipitor is now costing them $8 instead of $5 - and, how could anyone in their right mind expect them to pay a whopping $10 to see their cardiologist? And this is where I come in....I get to educate them on what the "normal" trends are in the industry and somehow make a point that they still are spoiled with an $8 name brand copay.

But there are a lot of great things about a union. They are fighters. They are loyal. It's a big family and they all protect one another. Do I think their practices are right for the world we live in today? probably not. I mean, if you are a company, and could pay a laborer $10/hour vs. a union laborer $30/hour, and both individuals had the same training and experience, I could see why it would piss off someone that they had to pay the union that add'l $20 just so they could be politically correct.

but they aren't going anywhere anytime soon. and those big inflated rats always makes me chuckle. and the guys on the picket lines, generally, are guys who are waiting in line to be placed in a job. So unless the union is 100% outsourced, which is never the case, I would imagine the guys you see with the signs weren't taken off any major job that day.

We all know that unions were conceived many, many years ago to ensure that the rank and file were treated equitably by ownership and management. I applaud the personal power and intestinal fortitude that the original labor leaders exhibited. It couldnt have been pleasant being the first dogs in the fight.

The exchange with your Mom that you cited, Gina, is exactly the mindset that still permeates much of America. Getting on the bandwagon "just because someone said so" is as big a roadblock to progress and innovation as anything. That provincial thinking is what perpetuates the hand-to-mouth blue collar mentality, and is yet another reason the middle class is getting squeezed out.

The "fighters" that you speak of are often called to the scene to protect the weakest link. Someone that wouldnt be up to snuff in the non-union world. I remember what a joke it was to me that we were unionized at Prudential. We were salespeople for Godssakes!!!! Not machine operators. Invariably, however, the only guys you ever saw waving the union banner were the schlubs that couldnt sell their way out of a paper bag, and needed the local to step in everytime they were in danger of getting "low-pro'd" out.

One need only look at GM to see a textbook example of what not to do. Upper management, knowing that their tenure would be short and severance packages large, placated the rank and file by giving away the store. GM vehicles still sell like hotcakes, but their margins are so paper thin, that any B school dropout would die laughing looking at their business model.

Im no legal eagle, but arent the mechanisms already in place to ensure that todays hourly worker gets a fair shake, and is protected from abuse in the workplace? Isnt the concept of paying dues to an organization just so they can speak on your behalf, and wield the only legal weapon they have, a strike, just a bit outdated?

Isnt the concept of paying dues to an organization just so they can speak on your behalf, and weild the only legal weapon they have, a strike, just a bit outdated?


yes

I've worked on both sides of the Table, as a Union Official, and as part of a Corporate Legal/Negotiator team.

The biggest challenge I saw was (and more-than-likely still is) the time-worn "Us verses Them" mentality. not just at the Table, but in the day-to-day workings of Management v Labour. one "side" is not causing it. They both continue to make that happen.

Adversarial Arrangements create Adversarial Relationships. Not just in Business, but pretty much everywhere You look

I sometimes wonder what it is people get out of their protests, because most times I'm sure what they're fighting against isn't going to change.

They're probably getting good feelings from the thought that they're doing something they think is right. That's cool, I guess. In the case of union activities, I would like to see them fail. Gotta shake my head at those folks.

I sometimes (rarely) see people working for something I would like to happen. Can't shake my head at those folks, I just wish them well.

There is a Wal Mart going up a few towns over from here. There are two giant, inflatable rats on display in front of the jobsite along with a guy holding a sign. They are of course voicing their displeasure with WalMart's use of non-union labor to build the store, and perhaps their employment of non-union store associates.

I know that some of you will say 'Well, with that attitude, Scott, why should anyone bother with anything, since you dont think any of it makes a difference."

I just think, in this instance that 1) the place will still get built, and people will still show up to buy stuff and 2) Im not convinced that the construction workers and store associates would be better served simply by organizing, since Im of the opinion that the reasons that unions were first conceived dont necessarily apply in this new world of ours.

I know I am draggin up old threads...but what else am I going to do rather than work when I have a ton to do today!:D

There was a Home Depot that went up in a part of Vancouver that was very old and very green...it was actual the first box store to be able to get a permit to even build in that area and the residents were against it. There were pickiters and such, tons of media against it etc...kind of like the rat.

What was interesting about this, and it happened about 5 or 6 years ago, is that even now it is their lowest sales volume store in Canada because the residents boycott it.

At the end of the day, because it's HD and they are massive, they will probably leave the store open. But it does hurt them, and make an impact on a small scale.

it is a justification for the dues that the Labor Unions take from the workers.

Without some demonstration the unions will begin to show how powerless and ineffective they have become. So instead they use these token symbols to try and ensure their membership that they are doing something rather than simply taking their money.

I third that motion - let it become law

I know I am draggin up old threads...but what else am I going to do rather than work when I have a ton to do today!:D

There was a Home Depot that went up in a part of Vancouver that was very old and very green...it was actual the first box store to be able to get a permit to even build in that area and the residents were against it. There were pickiters and such, tons of media against it etc...kind of like the rat.

What was interesting about this, and it happened about 5 or 6 years ago, is that even now it is their lowest sales volume store in Canada because the residents boycott it.

At the end of the day, because it's HD and they are massive, they will probably leave the store open. But it does hurt them, and make an impact on a small scale.

The entitlement mentality is pervasive in our society, and displays such as this are an example.

As bilogical beings, we contantly aspire to stasis, or status quo. We believe that it is our birthright to keep our little corner of the world the same way it always was, especially if we hit upon the formula to provide for our survival and well being.

The tale of woe that is spun about the Mom and Pop hardware store going belly up in small town USA is something no one would revel in, but it is a reality of an ever changing world that started the changing the day it came into existance.

The "Something For Nothing" crowd would rather bitch, moan, blog, picket, and cry about the demise of their comfy little way of life rather than get off their asses and do something about it...and that is change and self-develop in order to keep up with progress.

The reason is simple....its much easier to do the former, while engaging in the latter requires a good look in the mirror.

The "Something For Nothing" crowd would rather bitch, moan, blog, picket, and cry about the demise of their comfy little way of life rather than get off their asses and do something about it...and that is change and self-develop in order to keep up with progress.



I would say the picketers and some moaners do feel they are doing something. Unfortunately that is all they know they can do. Maybe it is a lack of intellect, or maybe their upbringing, I'm not sure.

I look at my warehouse here as an example. They do not make a ton of money, never really will. I have one foreman, and a supervisor. The rest really have no ambition to become any more than what they are doing. I don't think they are lazy, because they work hard and are reliable. So for whatever reason, they think they are doing all they can do, (I know, or want to do)...but even more interesting is that when you think about it, if everyone was trying to be the foreman and we had no "workers", the operation would not succeed.

So can the picketers really do more than they are doing? Maybe some can. Should they be doing more than they are doing? Or is this kind of like the circle of life? If our society was full of go-getters would that be good? I tend to think it would, however, it would certainly be a different US/Canada than it is right now.

I'm being long-winded this morning, but my point is that I do think those type of people think they are making a difference, and to them this may be the most impactful action they feel they can take.

I would say the picketers and some moaners do feel they are doing something. Unfortunately that is all they know they can do. Maybe it is a lack of intellect, or maybe their upbringing, I'm not sure.

I look at my warehouse here as an example. They do not make a ton of money, never really will. I have one foreman, and a supervisor. The rest really have no ambition to become any more than what they are doing. I don't think they are lazy, because they work hard and are reliable. So for whatever reason, they think they are doing all they can do, (I know, or want to do)...but even more interesting is that when you think about it, if everyone was trying to be the foreman and we had no "workers", the operation would not succeed.

So can the picketers really do more than they are doing? Maybe some can. Should they be doing more than they are doing? Or is this kind of like the circle of life? If our society was full of go-getters would that be good? I tend to think it would, however, it would certainly be a different US/Canada than it is right now.

I'm being long-winded this morning, but my point is that I do think those type of people think they are making a difference, and to them this may be the most impactful action they feel they can take.


Well said...

There was a time when a person could work in a factory or load/unload baggage at the airport and actually partake of the middle class dream. That is, he/she could have a modest home, a car, dinner on the table every night, and a week or two at the beach with the rugrats. Thats all he/she really required. Thats more or less is a thing of the past. I feel for these people, as they are likely not equipped for much more by virtue of upbringing, geographical constraints, or personal preference, but such is the reality of our information based society.

I feel for these people, as they are likely not equipped for much more by virtue of upbringing, geographical constraints, or personal preference, but such is the reality of our information based society.

That actually touched a heart string of mine when I was touring through the mid west down to Louisiana. I was mostly in the small towns, and the economy seems to be in the shitter in most of those towns. (it is in the big towns too but people are making their way through it)...

So I would stop and talk to people. I'd ask what they do around here for work and stuff and some of these guys would talk about layoffs at the mill or plant, and now they are unemployed. I would ask how they feel about that, (because they seemed pretty good natured about it), and they basically said it is what it is, you can't really do anything about it. I find that very sad. Actually very scary also.

As an example, a guy could be 2 hours outside of St Louis, yet he has never even been to the "big city", let alone would ever consider relocating to find work. It's not really his "fault" so to speak. His Dad never left the town, nor did his Grandfather etc...and those are the people that taught him what life is all about.

What is the difference between a person who is content with what is thrown at them, and a person who drives to make a change and take control of their life?

I spent a lot of time thinking of this as I rode around, (you tend to have time to think). It still concerns me a lot.

Sorry Wand, my intention wasn't to say small town living is small minded, I hope you didn't take it that way. I just mean if it is not working where you are, and what you are doing, move on to a bigger picture.

That's funny that you live near St Louis...I could have picked Nashville, Memphis, New Orleans, Cincinnati, any of those Cities I traveled through...speaking of cities, you know what city surprosed me? Baton Rouge. I am not sure why but I thought of it as a pretty happening town and was excited to see it. We rolled through and it was a ghost town...I think because it is mentioned in songs i thought it would be more. I'm sure there are better parts, but I even had trouble finding a good looking lunch spot and I was downtown.

I actually stopped in St Charles? I think it was there where we needed to get a little service done at the Ducati dealership. Then I got back on the highway in rush hour and it was super hot....that's my memory of St Louis. I stayed there for the night, but it was fairly late so we didn't go out anywhere.