Does God exist?

Hi All,

My main question is - If God did create the world, why wasn't everything perfect from the beginning. Why would he create something full of scum, violence, disease, child molestation, murder, etc. What's the reason? Why create something so humans could go through thousands of years of this just to have someone return to say "Ok it's all over! Follow me up to the sky!" I just don't get it, and I'm angry with myself for believing in Christianity for so long. I used to believe in Santa Claus deeply until I was brought to the light by reality.

Thanks for having me here, and I hope to learn a lot through reasonable discussion.

Thanks in advance.

 

Your post assumes that the things we don't like, like pestulance and disease and suffering etc, are imperfections. That kind of thinking is imposing our own values on the universe and (if God exists) on God.

It's saying, "I don't like these things, so it was a stupid move to create them, so they're imperfections, and since God can't be imperfect, then God can't exist... because I don't like these things."

You're also assuming that "God" has to be perfect.

Have we defined "God" for this thread yet? Did we decide if part of that definition is that God is perfect? And, if so, what does perfect mean?

 

I totally agree. I was going to respond to this post, but I think you have done a better job at it than I could

 

and this video proves what exactly?


that apples are not oranges!

Ahhh! pure genius.

 

Corinne, it's not nice to create questions without answering questions first. If you keep acting up like this were going to have to banish you to a place where The Onion is actually real news. You will be punished.

 

So here's a question for you...does existence exist? What does the concept of existence mean? I am typing words onto a keyboard, and they are appearing on a screen that you all can read from your various locations. But where are the words?

God does exist for me, and I'm OK with not knowing why or how or when or where. Well, the where makes sense because "everywhere I am" is where God exists for me.

I just read my Abraham-Hicks quote for today, which ended with "desire is what puts the eternalness in eternity." So what puts the existenceness in existence? Maybe it's the same thing. We want it, so it is.

 

I just saw this! :biglaugh:

 

Look at my signature quote.
What difference does it make, look at your life, look at the creation, look at our wonderful universe, and thank whatever gods may be for it.

Love to you all,

Hagit Love

 

And so here we all are.

 

Yep, still waiting for Miss Wonderful.

 

Never, fear. The things you're looking for are always in the last place you look.

 

SophiaGrace: God does not exist.

Sanal: That coming from you O_O sure freaks me out

SophiaGrace: My philosophy textbook last semester destroyed my faith

Sanal: lol no comments

SophiaGrace: *quirks an eyebrow*

Sanal: LOL

Badjedidude: Yeah, philosophy is too dangerous a subject. It should be banned because it questions religion. *rolls eyes*

Ovid: Yay! Another blow to the enemies of rational thought

SophiaGrace: Hey I guess i'm not going to sit here and fight against an argument that makes sense :/

it kind of makes me sad though in a way...

because I wanted God to be real and make me magically happier....

I guess i'll still be looking into the nature of God though because my minor in college is Religion. So it'll still be interesting but I know it no longer makes sense to believe that He exists..

Coverage: If you faith was based on the idea that believing in God would make you a happier person, then it was doomed to fail from the start.

Are you a happier person now with your new beliefs?

SophiaGrace: Well I think I thought I'd be happier knowing that everything happened for a reason (under God's directives) and wasnt just this big huge cosmic mathematical happening. (our existence)

Now I believe that the Universe just IS and doesnt need it's existence or it's complex structure explained with the concept of God.

Am I happier knowing this? no. I wanted God to be real to be able to tell myself "everything happens for a reason even if I dont understand it." and "God wouldnt give me this unless he knew I could handle it."

Made me feel like my life was worth more. Now its like...

"ok there's this thing called life....and on either end of this thing called life is blackness and nonexistence. Suddenly life seems stupid and nonsensical. Is this a practical joke?"

Basically what I think happy atheists do is keep themselves so busy in the routines of life that they dont have to think about the aformentioned. I think atheists avoid the truth too but in a different way...

Badjedidude: That's not necessarily true. The absence of a God does not automatically mean the absence of an afterlife. It's possible that humans have spirits that continue on after death...that's not religious at all, it's SCIENTIFIC. Scientists will tell you that we only understand about 5% (or less) of the matter in this universe...the other 95% is completely a mystery, and is commonly referred to as "Dark Matter." It's entirely possible that a human soul is a spark of Dark Matter energy that continues on long after the physical body quits. *shrug*

Are ghosts just figments of people's imaginations? Or is it possible that ghosts are actually TRULY dead people...leftover energy from long-dead bodies, for some reason still existing on the earth instead of passing on? Lol Sounds silly, but think of it in a scientific context and it can start to make sense.

So my point is this: Just because you don't believe in God doesn't mean that there isn't hope. Hey, anyway, in about 100 years (or less), we'll probably have life-lengthening procedures that allow us to live for centuries! So just live as long as you can...and I think you'll be alright either way.

SophiaGrace: What is the definition of Death?

The end of life.

Its kind of like asking what happens after a movie ends? Well...nothing...

It just ends
Badjedidude: Well, you gotta define what Life is also. Does Life end when the body ceases functioning? Or could it be that our consciousness moves on or alters to another mode of existence? Does that mean we haven't died or that we are still alive?

SophiaGrace: In my Human Biology class my teacher said the cell is the smallest lifeform.

I asked her what the requirements were to consider something alive...

and she said reproducing....that its made of cells....

The textbook said our bodies are made up of four main molecules and their subunits; Lipids, carbohydrates, Nucleotides and Protein (and possibly another sort of molecule that is only found in plants....Chloroplast)

But I guess we're getting into what the PHYSICAL definition is

By life i think you mean the Mind aka the concept of the soul...

the lecturer brought up an interesting analogy..."what if our bodies were like houses? You could destroy my house but I (the soul, the inhabitant) would still be alive."

But what if when you destroy the union of the pair (body & mind) they both stop existing..?

and if if what we think of as the mind...which are well partially biologically made (because hey mental illnesses like schizophrenia can be passed down genetically)

I wonder what the nature of mental illnesses are....

Are they a part of our soul too? But arent they biologically explainable by looking at the brain?

If mental illnesses are biologically explainable then does that mean that our minds are totally confined to the very physical brain?

I'm sorry if I am rambling! I tend to do this when I try to argue a point...i go all over the place

Badjedidude: Haha you're not rambling...it's all very interesting stuff, but it takes a lot of thinking to get through it all! That's why philosophers never get anything done! They just sit around and think all day! Honestly, I don't think that I'll ever really know the answer to it all until I am dead...so I don't worry about it too much.

I think it's possible that the soul is "perfect" by itself and that it's held back by the "physical problems" of the biological brain...but then again, it could be that some people's souls are just naturally evil or diseased. I have no idea.

I just don't think that losing faith in God means that you're just going to cease to exist one day. Lots of things are possible; who knows?

SophiaGrace: How are lots of things possible??

Badjedidude: They just are! If the universe can congeal out of scattered stellar debris, then anything is possible! I think...

o_0 right? Right, Sophia? Right??? *pleads*

Nevermore: That's how I felt at first(that life was a joke because death existed without the probability of an afterlife), but as you think about it more the fact that there is no afterlife makes this life that much more special

Life isn't stupid and nonsensical as much as its the most amazing and exciting event that's ever occurred in the universe, and your part of it, not only that but also your one of the most complex forms of life, capable of self awareness, and that to me makes life the most interesting thing there is

Also,it was because of natural rules that the universe was created, so by that logic only things that follow these rules can happen and therefore not anything is possible.

Badjedidude: Any rule can be bent I say anything is possible.

SophiaGrace:
You mean the laws of physics?

Well they havent been proven wrong yet. So I'm going to go by them until proven otherwize

Badjedidude: Except that those LAWS can be bent, and some astrophysicists and mathematicians are beginning to question if they are laws at all...or more like guidelines. Look at how a black hole warps space and time. Is that a bending of known laws to accomodate unknown laws? I think so.

Cheaptrickfan: One of the big questions is the idea of disentangling the soul from the mind, if that is possible at all.

The mind is very firmly rooted in biology and chemistry: physical injury to the brain can have a traumatic effect on the mind (read The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat, by Oliver Sacks's to see some cases); psychoactive drugs are simply chemicals, but potent ones which can have a dramatic effect on the mind, how we perceive things, whether or not we hallucinate. They can provide a total shift in mood and emotion. Our moods are dependent on the volatile stew of chemicals in our brains.

Now we ask ourselves, is the mind all that there is? Is there yet another aspect to us that makes us human - namely a soul, an entity separate from the prison of neurons and neurotransmitters, and something that lives on after the last synapse has sputtered out.

It's an unknowable thing, I think, at least now, because scientists can only measure what they know with the equipment at their disposal.

 

There are two basic models for the universe, the directed and the non directed.

If the universe is non directed then we are all made up of atoms, those atoms have always existed and according to chaos theory are falling and interacting with eachother as they always would. On a macro level that means that everything is predestined. There is no such thing as choice because you are a slave to your atoms and the way the react. In simple terms if an atom must always react as it is supposed to then you too as an organism will be controlled by the same force.

Or in the directed universe, things are created and were set in motion. This means that life is not mere coincidence but instead a creation and in if imbued with free will, then choice is created and we are no longer slaves.

Now choosing which God is the one for you can be a bit trickier as that requires both thought and value judgements.

The great thing is a belief that the universe is created also is a belief that we have the ability to change our circumstances ourselves. There doesn't need to be magic, only the freedom to choose your actions.

 

What did you read in one textbook that destroyed your faith? And why would you give more validity to one textbook than what you believed in before?

 

All knowledge is fluid, temporary and fleeting. Our understanding of the universe and of life is constantly in flux.

So you might as well believe in whatever it takes to make you happy and fulfilled - then give it your all.

 

Sophia, I believe that the Judeo-Christian concept of God is not in conflict with science and should not be in conflict with philosophy.

My experience is that the concept of God is however often in violent conflict with the closely held beliefs of scientists and philosophers and by extension, science teachers and philosophy professors.

What is important to understand is that these beliefs form the exact same kind of 'faith-based' belief system that these same people usually criticise of the religious or faithful.

Wand and Paul make some excellent points and ask good questions from a Judeo-Christian standpoint, and it is my belief that you cannot do better than Saf1 for the Muslim perspective, and Corinne will provide a good more secular/new age point of view.

For me, like Wand I consider myself an Objectivist in terms of philosophy. I am guessing from your signature that you know that the founder of this line of thought, Ayn Rand, was a devout athiest, she detested religion.

Well, I am also a Roman Catholic.

These are things which should not, in theory, be able to co-exist and yet I find they are not only compatible but synergistic. I am not in a position tonight to go into this deeply (I have some goals yet to achieve tonight), but please understand that there are intelligent, educated, rational people who choose to be faithful to religious belief, all around the world, who also understand philosophy, and luckily there are several who participate regularly here.

Good luck in your quest, and don't be too worried about your faith, it is almost cliche that young people find their beliefs challenged when in school, especially with the secular-humanist bent that is present in nearly all institutions of higher learning throughout the western world.

 

:whs:

 

Moments...

Having eyes,


They could not see



Having ears,


They could not hear



Having a mind,


They could not remember



He asked them..
"Do you not remember, when I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of fragmants did you take up?"



They replied,


"Twelve"


Then He said, "And when I broke the seven for the four thousand, how many large baskets full of fragmants did you take up?"



They replied,


"Seven"



Then He asked them, "How is it you do not understand -- Who I Am?"


...Jordan James

 

Thats some serious red letter stuff there

 

I normally like a quiz, I have no idea what this is all about though.